Is Extra Moly Good?

[demarpaint]

I use MMO, not every OCI though. I like it at the end of an OCI and during the winter I'll use a full qt then for the full OCI. MMO goes into every tank of gas I use.

I'm currently using Lubro Moly with Edge in my E-150, that was after PP and a qt of MMO for the winter. So far so good!


I believe oils are quite good, I also believe oil companies are interested in making a good product, but more interested in a good profit. I think oils can benefit from certain additives, MMO, and LM being two of my favorites, along with Schaeffers #132.

Look at all the older engines that were hurt because of the ZDDP reductions, yet they claim all oils are backward compatible? What did they tell the people with the cam problems?

 

[shpankey]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
according to dave at redline, their oils have 950ppm moly


I may be wrong, but I was thinking their 5w40 had decreased the moly quite a bit. But 10w40 does have a lot. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I ran the 10w40 Redline and I'm going to switch to the 5w40 as their is some talk of having too much moly can actually cause wear. I am curious to see saber's next UOA. He had several really good UOA's on the Redline 5w40 and then switched to some Brad Pitt which he took out quickly but then tried the 10w40 Redline and the UOA did not look good by comparison. I'm curious if it comes back down on the 5w40 Redline again.

Somewhere, someone said something about after 200ppm of moly, it starts making things worse. I don't necessarily believe that, but it was curious to see saber's results.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
what harm/damage did it cause, or was it just bleeding out over a period of a few oil changes?


No harm that I could detect ..and it didn't start bleeding out until I used Bruce's 0w-10. It just sat there. Now if you could get the right oil, it would have almost been like those tablets that you put in the toilet tank.

It introduced a 150-200 ppm constant drip into the sump

Quote:
Did VSOT contain MoS2, or the other moly that RL and Schaeffers use?


I dunno

I only used it the one time. I do have a few bottles hanging around. That was back in BITOG mania days. Around 2002 GC was new and the cat's meow ..VSOT ..SLOB came into the view. I drove 25 miles to get to AZ to find GC (which I have never used) and found BC (Belgian Castrol - which I have also never used).

It was almost like new found carnal knowledge back then. An oil [censored] was going on every day here. Some even had elves involved in the antics.

 

[demarpaint]

Thanks Gary, those toilet tank tablets are a good analogy !

I'm wondering if the thick base was why it leached out. Maybe it laid at the bottom of the pan, like many claimed STP did back in the day. Those were the STP anti's. I remember them saying it never totally mixed in and a large % of it laid on the bottom of the oil pan. That made for some great discussion back in the day. But if true could explain the leaching, unless moly really "plates" the way they say it does and the fresh oil gets the some of the moly that "plated" back into suspension?

BTW that was an example I'm not calling you a VSOT anti.

 

[boxcartommie22]

opps, my mistake you are right, redline diesel 15w40 and the 5w40 have no moly in it.

 

[rclint]

Whatever the base the moly should not have leached out unless the engine was cold when put in, the moly just clumped and fell into some nook/cranny in the engine, still when the engine heated up it should have dispersed the moly, the moly itself should have then combined, or almost alloy... I have read, and heard so many things about moly, however I have seen in real life what it can do.. a little is great, a lot, or a constant addition before the moly or surface has depleted/wore is or can be (was in my circumstance) a horrible nightmare causing more friction, cracking of metal substrate, caking of the moly, unable to remove the moly without damage to the metal substrate.. also I noticed much increased friction when the moly started to build on top of itself, this increased friction is what I assumed caused the cracked, baked surface to the moly, and then everything just snowballs with moly building up etc.

I would not add any moly to my engine outside what is already in the oil from the maker... the upside is the 5 quart sumps of hot oil which may be a horrible carrier for moly, may never really interact with the metal working parts of the engine, or bind so much... I don't know... but as I said above moly can be a good thing... it can also destroy metal when to much is added... The parts I destroyed were just for testing... it would have been millions of dollars had it been implemented before the results were known... you know the old saying a little is good, a lot is better, pour it on while it's running... keep pouring until teh can is out see if that makes her run better.

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: rclint
Whatever the base the moly should not have leached out unless the engine was cold when put in, the moly just clumped and fell into some nook/cranny in the engine, still when the engine heated up it should have dispersed the moly, the moly itself should have then combined, or almost alloy... I have read, and heard so many things about moly, however I have seen in real life what it can do.. a little is great, a lot, or a constant addition before the moly or surface has depleted/wore is or can be (was in my circumstance) a horrible nightmare causing more friction, cracking of metal substrate, caking of the moly, unable to remove the moly without damage to the metal substrate.. also I noticed much increased friction when the moly started to build on top of itself, this increased friction is what I assumed caused the cracked, baked surface to the moly, and then everything just snowballs with moly building up etc.

I would not add any moly to my engine outside what is already in the oil from the maker... the upside is the 5 quart sumps of hot oil which may be a horrible carrier for moly, may never really interact with the metal working parts of the engine, or bind so much... I don't know... but as I said above moly can be a good thing... it can also destroy metal when to much is added... The parts I destroyed were just for testing... it would have been millions of dollars had it been implemented before the results were known... you know the old saying a little is good, a lot is better, pour it on while it's running... keep pouring until the can is out see if that makes her run better.


Pretty sure the Lubro-Moly MoS2 Can is 300ml. Is this elevating Moly enough to kill Engines? Or, achieving the Happy Medium?

I too am not a Chemist nor Scientist, but im sure addung THOUSANDS of ml of Moly would kill an Engine. Thought Ideal amount was around 2000ppm. So Amount in oil already (If any) plus 300ml from Can.. this is well within Safety net?

We need a list of Moly numbers in different Oils. I believe this will help the question.

 

[demarpaint]

I doubt the product is going to harm an engine. After doing my own homework and speaking with people from the company, as well as moly suppliers I've come to the conclusion it is safe to use. The company is a long standing well established company.

Here is a VOA summary: Figure out crankcase capacity, and moly content, if any in the oil you plan on adding it to.

I would think an initial 300 ml treatment ~10 ounces first time out, and then 1 ounce/qt would work fine with most if not all oils. Maybe with the exception of LM oil, or RL oil which are loaded with moly already. The company says it can be used all the time. HTH

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/lubro-moly-mos2-antifriction-treatment.93804/

Summary of the VOA of LM

moly 4635
nickel 1
Boron 94
silicon 40
sodium 10
calcium 1
phosphorus 15

 

[dailydriver]

Good to see it has at least some boron in it, and very low phosphorus.

If zinc is not listed, does that mean it is ZERO?? (If so, also great news!

)

 

[rclint]

Quote:
Pretty sure the Lubro-Moly MoS2 Can is 300ml. Is this elevating Moly enough to kill Engines? Or, achieving the Happy Medium?

I too am not a Chemist nor Scientist, but im sure addung THOUSANDS of ml of Moly would kill an Engine. Thought Ideal amount was around 2000ppm. So Amount in oil already (If any) plus 300ml from Can.. this is well within Safety net?

We need a list of Moly numbers in different Oils. I believe this will help the question.


I'm not sure what the level is..cuttoff point etc to where moly begins to coat on top of itself, or cause all the problems I had.. I'm not to smart a person either, nor a chemist... also I was not trying to use scare tactics, as I said the 5 quart sump of oil is a huge carrier, and a horrible one at that as the oil does not evaporate off etc. The things I did see where moly begins to hinder were these three things, maybe a combination of the I still don't know the answer to this, only the outcome... Extreme heat, pressure (from rubbing or pushing in my experiment) along with moly in a carrier (not engine oil) I used alcohol for a carrier most of the time, or applied in a dry film... the alcohol evaporated quickly pretty much leaving the dry film.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: rclint
Quote:
Pretty sure the Lubro-Moly MoS2 Can is 300ml. Is this elevating Moly enough to kill Engines? Or, achieving the Happy Medium?

I too am not a Chemist nor Scientist, but im sure addung THOUSANDS of ml of Moly would kill an Engine. Thought Ideal amount was around 2000ppm. So Amount in oil already (If any) plus 300ml from Can.. this is well within Safety net?

We need a list of Moly numbers in different Oils. I believe this will help the question.


I'm not sure what the level is..cuttoff point etc to where moly begins to coat on top of itself, or cause all the problems I had.. I'm not to smart a person either, nor a chemist... also I was not trying to use scare tactics, as I said the 5 quart sump of oil is a huge carrier, and a horrible one at that as the oil does not evaporate off etc. The things I did see where moly begins to hinder were these three things, maybe a combination of the I still don't know the answer to this, only the outcome... Extreme heat, pressure (from rubbing or pushing in my experiment) along with moly in a carrier (not engine oil) I used alcohol for a carrier most of the time, or applied in a dry film... the alcohol evaporated quickly pretty much leaving the dry film.


Are you referring to coating bullets and rifle barrels?

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: rclint
Quote:
Pretty sure the Lubro-Moly MoS2 Can is 300ml. Is this elevating Moly enough to kill Engines? Or, achieving the Happy Medium?

I too am not a Chemist nor Scientist, but im sure addung THOUSANDS of ml of Moly would kill an Engine. Thought Ideal amount was around 2000ppm. So Amount in oil already (If any) plus 300ml from Can.. this is well within Safety net?

We need a list of Moly numbers in different Oils. I believe this will help the question.


I'm not sure what the level is..cuttoff point etc to where moly begins to coat on top of itself, or cause all the problems I had.. I'm not to smart a person either, nor a chemist... also I was not trying to use scare tactics, as I said the 5 quart sump of oil is a huge carrier, and a horrible one at that as the oil does not evaporate off etc. The things I did see where moly begins to hinder were these three things, maybe a combination of the I still don't know the answer to this, only the outcome... Extreme heat, pressure (from rubbing or pushing in my experiment) along with moly in a carrier (not engine oil) I used alcohol for a carrier most of the time, or applied in a dry film... the alcohol evaporated quickly pretty much leaving the dry film.


Are you referring to coating bullets and rifle barrels?


Corvette people also have more than a 5 Quart Sump. meaning, some have more than 5 Qts. Some even have 4.

The More Oil the Moly is in, the more needed.. Or the more Worse it is for Everything?

Lucy, Splain!

 

[rclint]

Quote:
Are you referring to coating bullets and rifle barrels?


No however I have also seen results of that, and also shot moly coated bullets (well into the thousands) I never had any problems with it so much in this area, however I have seen pictures of those that shot high quantity with pitting, crack lines etc.. I can't really talk about work, however this was being used in a application where a ceramic was sprayed onto a pieces of aluminum however the ceramic was porous picking up, and loading the ceramic... we then started working with this one part, and several other parts where friction reduction, and extending life of the parts were important..

We ended up getting a ceramic casting made in several applications, the moly was never incorporated into any part.

 

[demarpaint]

I've shot my fair share of coated bullets too, the moly helped but I found Tungsten Disulfide to be better. I also have the ceramic coating for them, which is supposed to be the best, but in engine applications it finds its way into the combustion chamber and caused plug fouling according to the mfg. The TD is good in an engine they claim but doesn't stay in suspension as well as the moly, making the moly a better choice. The key with any of these adds is not to overdo it.

Sounds like you do some interesting work.

 

[rclint]

Quote:
Corvette people also have more than a 5 Quart Sump. meaning, some have more than 5 Qts. Some even have 4.

The More Oil the Moly is in, the more needed.. Or the more Worse it is for Everything?

Lucy, Splain!


In my experience oil is a horrible carrier for moly, the contact with moving engine parts is just not what you think as I assume much of the oil is flowing through galleries.. so this is one big help, another is 5 quarts of oil is huge compared to a small can of moly.. so in my opinion to begin with the oil is a horrible carrier for moly, the amount being used may not be hurting anything, but I doubt it's doing any good at all either, look at the glob in the picture that started all of this, the moly sure didn't cling to any metal...

Now if some how it did work really well the amount of moly being poured in every oil change would be overwhelming to what I seen. The moly would build up on top of itself giving you the problems I posted about earlier,... No short answer to your question... my opinion is the amount of moly your putting into your oil is probably settling on your oil pan, being filter out, or maybe combining with your oil, and draining out.. however moly really needs to combine with the metal to serve it's purpose.. some call this an alloy, however I don't think moly is considered a metal ( I may be wrong here... feel free to correct me) if you know much about metallurgy alloys once made are extremely hard to break the bond, I'm not sure you can in many cases, or in any cost prohibitive way..

So if the moly worked yes the can would be way to much in my opinion at every oil change, oil capacity does not matter so much in this situation as the moly should be adhering to the metal internal engine parts, the surface area of the engine parts does not go up in most cases in passenger car engines when larger than 5 quart oil sumps are used, however you could expect some although very little loss from the more diluted moly in a higher than 5 quart sump.. still if the application is working the moly should be adhering to engine internals... so a treatment should not be so much on oil capacity, but surface area...

This is why I kept mentioning the 5 quart sump, moly loves to cling to metal, and even more so when the metal is heated, and even stranger moly will even adhere to metal at a faster rate when heat, friction, pressure is there.. but oil is a horrible carrier for the moly, I used 99% alcohol for this reason as the alcohol evaporates off leaving the moly..

This is from my hands on work with moly, I do note that many add packs use moly, grease as well, grease would work better than oil as the grease stays on the metal leaving the moly in contact with the metal.. that is a far better carrier than oil circulating at a fast rate..

 

[rclint]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I've shot my fair share of coated bullets too, the moly helped but I found Tungsten Disulfide to be better. I also have the ceramic coating for them, which is supposed to be the best, but in engine applications it finds its way into the combustion chamber and caused plug fouling according to the mfg. The TD is good in an engine they claim but doesn't stay in suspension as well as the moly, making the moly a better choice. The key with any of these adds is not to overdo it.

Sounds like you do some interesting work.


I love shooting as well, load my own rounds etc.. I love it, however I rarely every get to anymore it seems. Bullet coatings really helped when shooting really high velocity, small caliber cartridges. I think it was barnes that had a blue dry film lube that also worked decent, I never found a dry lube that I was really happy with when shooting, I would just as soon lay down a layer of copper.. However I never owned a 22-250 ( well I did own a 22-250 but shot very little) 17 rem etc etc.

I love working on problems like this, sourcing other types of metal, coatings, ceramics is a huge material in my opinion that is underused to say the least. Ceramic will outlast metal by 10 fold, very very wear resistant, many times where lubrication was needed the use of ceramic will not need lubricated... I love to shoot as well, I imagine many of us here at BITOG are tinkers looking for a better way... or cheaper, whatever floats your boat.... hope my information was of some help, I honestly didn't want come off as a scare tactic, nor a worthless additive, only my experience.

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: rclint
Quote:
Corvette people also have more than a 5 Quart Sump. meaning, some have more than 5 Qts. Some even have 4.

The More Oil the Moly is in, the more needed.. Or the more Worse it is for Everything?

Lucy, Splain!


In my experience oil is a horrible carrier for moly, the contact with moving engine parts is just not what you think as I assume much of the oil is flowing through galleries.. so this is one big help, another is 5 quarts of oil is huge compared to a small can of moly.. so in my opinion to begin with the oil is a horrible carrier for moly, the amount being used may not be hurting anything, but I doubt it's doing any good at all either, look at the glob in the picture that started all of this, the moly sure didn't cling to any metal...

Now if some how it did work really well the amount of moly being poured in every oil change would be overwhelming to what I seen. The moly would build up on top of itself giving you the problems I posted about earlier,... No short answer to your question... my opinion is the amount of moly your putting into your oil is probably settling on your oil pan, being filter out, or maybe combining with your oil, and draining out.. however moly really needs to combine with the metal to serve it's purpose.. some call this an alloy, however I don't think moly is considered a metal ( I may be wrong here... feel free to correct me) if you know much about metallurgy alloys once made are extremely hard to break the bond, I'm not sure you can in many cases, or in any cost prohibitive way..

So if the moly worked yes the can would be way to much in my opinion at every oil change, oil capacity does not matter so much in this situation as the moly should be adhering to the metal internal engine parts, the surface area of the engine parts does not go up in most cases in passenger car engines when larger than 5 quart oil sumps are used, however you could expect some although very little loss from the more diluted moly in a higher than 5 quart sump.. still if the application is working the moly should be adhering to engine internals... so a treatment should not be so much on oil capacity, but surface area...

This is why I kept mentioning the 5 quart sump, moly loves to cling to metal, and even more so when the metal is heated, and even stranger moly will even adhere to metal at a faster rate when heat, friction, pressure is there.. but oil is a horrible carrier for the moly, I used 99% alcohol for this reason as the alcohol evaporates off leaving the moly..

This is from my hands on work with moly, I do note that many add packs use moly, grease as well, grease would work better than oil as the grease stays on the metal leaving the moly in contact with the metal.. that is a far better carrier than oil circulating at a fast rate..


Ive re-read that twice. Seems like you are saying Moly CANT do anything, because there is nowhere for it to go (only set amount of space on Internal Engine Surfaces..) OR using it only Once or Twice is Ok because then it will take up Permanent Residence on Engine Surfaces all over, thus reducing Friction, and no need for continued use as that will cause Floating Globules of Moly more akin to Sludge!

Please grade what i have Deduced there.

And one more point about the Numbers.. I may stop using Moly. If Redline has 950PPM and some Oils have next to None, and i dont know how much My oil has (I use Valvoline Oils, either SynPower or other Blends and the HM one it seems a good standby i dont experiment with Oils much besides this, besides they dont cost much so it seems like a Win i never said what Oil i was using i pick up Valvolines Maxlife consistently, either or) but anyways.. The Can has 300ml. So, i first added Half the can. Then after 500 miles or so, Yes on Hot day, i added the Rest. 150mL Hot plus 150mL Hot. Maybe it has absorbed in, as i dont see the Color anymore. I can say the Strange Olive Color has gone away, i noticed it one day, now it is not there. (The Olive color i describe looked like the Science project that had the Greasy-looking Liquid in it, and the Moly in the Can DID look like Grease. I wonder if they thought of the Carrier/adhesion problem when they made it.)

I believe what MAY have happened is the Moly DID absorb onto Engine parts, as 300ml isnt Thousands of Ml (an Overdose for sure,) rather 300ml which seems like Safe Territory. If it Adhered and Baked on and will be there to stay like aMoly Alloy in mY Engine.. Oerhaps i have Nailed it and Continued use would be Unwise! (This my Home-brewing. I may Stop being a Backyard Chemist. Tempting as it is to make things Better.)

I can see why Home-brew Additives is Frowned upon. Who knows what will counteract what, and MMO is a Solvent so i may just stop using that, as the Oil Color, though not Conclusive, seems to be telling me my Engine is clean, just keep changing the Oil so it doesnt break down.

 

[demarpaint]

I think using the term "absorbed in" might be a poor choice of words, maybe plated to, or coating the metal, might be a better term.

My oil maintained the silver gray color for quite a while, then turned the normal brownish color as it got dirty.

Check the VOA section and see if any of the oils you use, or plan on using, have VOA reports, I would think RL knows enough about moly to establish a safe number. JMO

 

[rclint]

demerpaint I did use a poor choice of words when I said absorbed, but plated, and coating are also really not correct.. Again if I remember my research correct the moly will bond with the substrate attaching itself.. I will have to do some more research so that I can post the correct info...

I'm scared to say what moly can do as I have not run any trials adding moly to engine oil... I wanted to give my experience on what moly can do which is build up a layer on top of itself which will become an abrasive instead of the outstanding low friction benefits we expect, and read about from moly. I do know a 5 quart or more of engine oil, even in a hot sump is a very poor carrier for moly meaning that it's just a poor way to deliver moly to the internal engine surface, however it's pretty much the only way.. Also the only way I know of to do test on this type of moly addition would be extensive tear downs, I love doing test, and I love experimenting with a true scientific point of view... but not to the point I want to do tear downs on an engine just to see !!!

The bad thing I can see about moly in the engine oil is even though the oil is poor at getting the moly where you want it to the internal engine parts... it would be outstanding at washing this moly off with the moderate warm engine temperatures, I'm sure vast amount of cleaning additives in the oil.. so it would be a fight even if you got it to where you want it... I'm still out on a limb as to if I think the moly offers a value in the bottle as you are talking about, and I would be worried about the moly building up just because that's what I have seen BUT NOT in a engine..

If I were to guess how moly would help an internal combustion engine the most I would think if the engine has a timing chain that moly would be great in this application as the crushing, rolling action of the chain would really be a great place for moly to bond to. Flowing oil over a surface even if hot is not a great way for moly to bond to...

I will try to find some websites to help me explain if I'm still being hard to understand... a couple of nights on third shift puts my brain of the fryer... and I will have to be up all day... so don't give up on me I will find some websites that explain how moly bonds to metal, and the best ways to deliver it .. and the best way to get the moly to bond with the metal substrate once it gets to where you want it. Also I'm no oil guru, I have been learning huge amounts from the great members here, and my views may clash with others at times, but i try to keep an open mind... so what I'm saying is demerpaint said it perfect when he said the part about redline knows enough about moly to establish a safe, and effective amount of moly... keep in mind redline also probably knows what additives work best with moly... and I'm sure their are many different grades of moly as well...

 

[mechtech2]

Good questions are:
Why are there no Lubro Moly failures?
What makes their chemists and oil engineers substandard?
What about Liqui and Lubro Moly's great track record in engines?