Is Extra Moly Good?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: rclint
demerpaint I did use a poor choice of words when I said absorbed, but plated, and coating are also really not correct.. Again if I remember my research correct the moly will bond with the substrate attaching itself.. I will have to do some more research so that I can post the correct info...

I'm scared to say what moly can do as I have not run any trials adding moly to engine oil... I wanted to give my experience on what moly can do which is build up a layer on top of itself which will become an abrasive instead of the outstanding low friction benefits we expect, and read about from moly. I do know a 5 quart or more of engine oil, even in a hot sump is a very poor carrier for moly meaning that it's just a poor way to deliver moly to the internal engine surface, however it's pretty much the only way.. Also the only way I know of to do test on this type of moly addition would be extensive tear downs, I love doing test, and I love experimenting with a true scientific point of view... but not to the point I want to do tear downs on an engine just to see !!!

The bad thing I can see about moly in the engine oil is even though the oil is poor at getting the moly where you want it to the internal engine parts... it would be outstanding at washing this moly off with the moderate warm engine temperatures, I'm sure vast amount of cleaning additives in the oil.. so it would be a fight even if you got it to where you want it... I'm still out on a limb as to if I think the moly offers a value in the bottle as you are talking about, and I would be worried about the moly building up just because that's what I have seen BUT NOT in a engine..

If I were to guess how moly would help an internal combustion engine the most I would think if the engine has a timing chain that moly would be great in this application as the crushing, rolling action of the chain would really be a great place for moly to bond to. Flowing oil over a surface even if hot is not a great way for moly to bond to...

I will try to find some websites to help me explain if I'm still being hard to understand... a couple of nights on third shift puts my brain of the fryer... and I will have to be up all day... so don't give up on me I will find some websites that explain how moly bonds to metal, and the best ways to deliver it .. and the best way to get the moly to bond with the metal substrate once it gets to where you want it. Also I'm no oil guru, I have been learning huge amounts from the great members here, and my views may clash with others at times, but i try to keep an open mind... so what I'm saying is demerpaint said it perfect when he said the part about redline knows enough about moly to establish a safe, and effective amount of moly... keep in mind redline also probably knows what additives work best with moly... and I'm sure their are many different grades of moly as well...


Posting opinions, observations etc are what this board is all about. I was just trying to clear up certain phrases you used that's all. I'm far from an expert myself but do a fair amount of research before pouring something into a good running engine.

I think what you said about moly having benefits in timing chains could be true. I was thinking more toward bearings where a thin film of moly might be a big help. For a respected company like RL to be using it means to me they must have extensively tested it and feel it has value. Lubro moly is using a moly suitable for automotive applications. You could always contact them and ask questions directly to them, they are not pushy and eager to help. At least that has been my experience with them.

 

[boxcartommie22]

moly is 950ppm

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Good questions are:
Why are there no Lubro Moly failures?
What makes their chemists and oil engineers substandard?
What about Liqui and Lubro Moly's great track record in engines?


I asked those questions, and decided to give LM a try.

 

[JAG]

Oil-insoluble MoS2 in Lubro-Moly's additive and oil soluble organo-metallic molybdenum compounds used in many motor oils are too different for their effects to be considered similar on a PPM of molybdenum basis.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: rclint
I do know a 5 quart or more of engine oil, even in a hot sump is a very poor carrier for moly meaning that it's just a poor way to deliver moly to the internal engine surface, however it's pretty much the only way


There are aftermarket performance (and even some select OEM/stock) moly coated pistons/piston skirts on the market.
I doubt they would exist if moly had NO benefits whatsoever.

I wish mola and the other brilliant/knowledgeable tribologists/chemical engineers would come on here and give us their viewpoints on this topic of engine oil being a poor carrier for moly, and the resultant plating (or lack thereof) due to this being the case or not.

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Oil-insoluble MoS2 in Lubro-Moly's additive and oil soluble organo-metallic molybdenum compounds used in many motor oils are too different for their effects to be considered similar on a PPM of molybdenum basis.


This sounds like the most telling Statement of all. I have used One Can of this MoS2 Lubro-Moly in maxLife. I could just drain it out now and never use it again. I think the reason my oil changes Colors is the MoS2 Did coat Surfaces, and perhaps one application is all that was needed?

And how much Moly is in MaxLife? it is well established RedLine's amount. My Engine's TLC is MaxLife, and if more Moly will help it.. this is why i added the Can.

Of the "Insoluble" Moly.. I believe Clarification about the type/benefit of Moly in the MoS2 Can vs Motor Oil Moly.

My Engine DOES purr Smoothly. Is Moly responsible? Did it do Harm? I do not Know, and I doubt it) doing Harm.)

 

[HangerHarley]

FWIW... I feel the Moly debate is over This product.

 

[MolaKule]

http://www.imoa.info/moly_uses/moly_compounds/lubricants.html

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
FWIW... I feel the Moly debate is over This product.


I have to wonder if the product is worth it. There are certainly good points on both sides of the debate.

It is a rather pricey product, especially in Canada. If someone were so intent upon added moly, why wouldn't such a person just buy the oil from that company, or another company that already has it in the oil?

Their oil is roughly $50/gallon in Canada, compared to the average synthetic at $40/gallon regular price in Canada. The U.S. price I could find for the additive is around $15 per treatment.

Sure, one can get a synthetic cheaper, but I'm just choosing baseline prices here. Personally, I'd think that the oil from the company would be a wiser choice, since one would think the additives would be balanced with the moly content taken into account, as opposed to tossing in an additive to whatever one normally puts in the crankcase.

 

[mechtech2]

Moly in Lubro Moly is very fine, and stays in suspension unless it sits for a VERY long time, or it is intentionally overloaded. So this is not a problem for street cars.

But even additives in 'normal' oil can be seen to fall out of suspension when we look at the bottom of a jug.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Moly in Lubro Moly is very fine, and stays in suspension unless it sits for a VERY long time, or it is intentionally overloaded. So this is not a problem for street cars.

But even additives in 'normal' oil can be seen to fall out of suspension when we look at the bottom of a jug.


+1......Simply starting the engine and a short drive puts everything back into suspension. I have LM currently in a mower that is being used once every 10 days due to the heat wave we've had. The dipstick still has the silvery color from LM evenly distributed on it, even after for sitting close to 2 weeks. It would take a very long time for it to fall totally out of suspension based on my observations.

 

[rclint]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Oil-insoluble MoS2 in Lubro-Moly's additive and oil soluble organo-metallic molybdenum compounds used in many motor oils are too different for their effects to be considered similar on a PPM of molybdenum basis.


Jag I was talking specifically about about mos2, however I have also worked with a soluble moly based compund that I forget the name of, the name being used however was a spin off of moly disulphide. The properties were extremely different, and the base was a glob of fat looking substance, almost like a really thick oil. I would like you to expand a little more on the lubro moly, mos2, and the moly used in engine oil.

 

[rclint]

when you see the picture gary posted of the glob of moly, this is what moly (mos2) will look like when it falls out of an oil suspension.. it would be very hard to get it back into suspension inside a engine.

I also think there is a big difference between a piston etc parts coated with moly as compared to a moly (mos2) used as a additive. If you could coat pistons etc with moly there would be no need to engine manufactures, parts manufactures aftermarket, and OEM to have these parts coated with moly... I'm also interested in how they coat the parts I assume a plasma type spray, also a impact coating would work such as tumbling with moly combined with shot (small steel or lead balls) to incorporate the moly into the substrate.

 

[demarpaint]

The difference is the VSOT that Gary added to his engine was very thick. I remember stories of STP settling on the bottom of oil pans as a thick goo. I never saw it for myself but heard many stories like that. Gary's goo definately contained moly from what he's said, could have had a hint of sludge in it as well?

The other question is what moly did Valvoline use in VSOT?

 

[Ken2]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Moly isn't cheap, which is why some companies are looking for alternatives. JMO

The Liquid Titanium that ConocoPhillips76Kendall is buying from Afton Chemical is there to provide the benefits of moly at lower cost. At least, that's their claim in the patent.

We know that ZDDP forms a wear resistant high friction tribofilm on wear points. ZDDP plus moly (or maybe ZDDP plus Liquid Titanium) forms a wear resistant low friction tribofilm on those wear points.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Moly isn't cheap, which is why some companies are looking for alternatives. JMO

The Liquid Titanium that ConocoPhillips76Kendall is buying from Afton Chemical is there to provide the benefits of moly at lower cost. At least, that's their claim in the patent.

We know that ZDDP forms a wear resistant high friction tribofilm on wear points. ZDDP plus moly (or maybe ZDDP plus Liquid Titanium) forms a wear resistant low friction tribofilm on those wear points.


According to a VOA of Edge 0W20 they are using the Liquid Titanium as well. There is no moly in Edge 0W20 according to the VOA I read. The end justifies the means, the UOA reports might tell the story, although I have my doubts.

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

According to a VOA of Edge 0W20 they are using the Liquid Titanium as well. There is no moly in Edge 0W20 according to the VOA I read


I have already added Lubro-Moly to Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 and the car is running great, I will probably add some Lubro-Moly to the Edge 0W-20 this winter.

My oil still has that grey color after 500 miles, will be interesting to see when it changes color.

 

[rclint]

As I was saying in my previous post, and my experience with moly (I have specifically been talking about molybdenum disulphide or mos2 = same thing) I was going to link all of the pages, however these come from the web, some are excerpts from a page etc.

The lubricating properties of MoS2 have been explained by the strong polarization of the sulfur atoms which produce a layer structure, good adhesion to metal surfaces, adhesion between MoS2 basal planes, easy sliding of MoS2 lamellae and the formation of a homogeneous continuous film. It is now shown that the load carrying part of the MoS2 film lies only on the asperities of the metal surface.

http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/solidlub.htm#molybdenum MoS2 is a mined material found in the thin veins within granite and highly refined in order to achieve a purity suitable for lubricants. Just like graphite has MoS2 a hexagonal crystal structure with the intrinsic property of easy shear. MoS2 lubrication performance often exceeds that of graphite and is effective in vacuum as well whereas graphite does not. The temperature limitation of MoS2 at 400ºC is restricted by oxidation. The particle size and film thickness are important parameters that should be matched to the surface roughness of the substrate. Large particles may result in excessive wear by abrasion caused by impurities in the MoS2, small particles may result in accelerated oxidation.

 

[rclint]

I also think there is a big difference between a piston etc parts coated with moly as compared to a moly (mos2) used as a additive. If you could coat pistons etc with moly there would be no need to engine manufactures, parts manufactures aftermarket, and OEM to have these parts coated with moly..

I could not go back and edit, however I meant to say

If you could coat pistons etc with moly as an additive in oil there would be no need to engine manufactures, parts manufactures aftermarket, and OEM to have these parts coated with moly.

 

[demarpaint]

How does UF grade moly added to oil, at less than lets say 1000ppm equate into all of this?