Is a hybrid right for my commute?

[CharlesInCharge]

Well we bought a prius 2 months ago and love the savings. If you don't NEED the truck, or want one, personally I would go Camry, as I think its a better hybrid system. Truck prices are at an all time high, so good time to switch. Maybe rent one for a few days? That way u can see what u save, and if you like it? I get what folks are saying about keep what u have, or buy a beater, but who wants to drive a beater for that many miles a day? If you can get a nice driving newer car that gets great mileage, AND get great money out of truck, doesnt seem like a bad idea. The savings we are getting , is almost paying for the car in our case. Plus still have the XC60 if we want something bigger. Maint. should also be quite a bit less on the toyo. Brakes esp. should last almost forever.

Really?
How does your math work out? I'm curious. What was the cost of the car, is it on a loan, what are the interest terms, what's your insurance, and mpgs and driving?

New Prius is $30,000. 55mpg.

See my calculations above. Give Prius 55mpg, and contrast that with a 35mpg $3000 used Civic, same class of car. Absent you driving 100k miles annually, you'd never surpass the used Civic value. If you're driving 30k miles annually, saving maybe $3k annually, you'd need probably at least 11 years, to surpass the value of the used Civic. Probably closer to 15 years, factoring taxes, registration, and insurance.

If like most people you drive 10-15k miles annually, you "break even" at about year 20, maybe year 25. lol.

Editing to add: The OP is looking for a sedan, not a compact car, so the idea of a Prius or Civic does not fit his needs. This is just an illustration of the fuzzy math of the "buy a new car" advice.

 

[TeamZero]

I look at used cars constantly on local classifieds. Just looked at a car I'll probably be buying at auction soon. I watched a nice Volvo go at auction for only $1100. I looked at it in person. I sorta regret not bidding on it. A good deal.

Yes, used cars are up a bit in price, say 20%. That means a car that might have been $2000 is $2400. $3000 is $3600.

Plenty of very reliable $2500- $3600 cars out there, about 10-20 years old, 100-150k miles, and two decades of remaining life with a little TLC. And the V6s and V8s from the early 2000s can easily cruise at 30 mpgs and 25 mpgs respectively. Four bangers even better if it's just for long range commuting needs. A 2002 Honda Civic is a great car and will give 35 mpg hwy all day long.

This really isn't difficult stuff folks.

Thats all great....but an old cheap car is not going to drive as nice as his truck, or a new hybrid......and most certainly wont be as reliable, or maint. free. Again, each to his own. I'm a dealer Tech and can fix anything, and could probably drive most beaters, without issue....but I dont WANT to.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Thats all great....but an old cheap car is not going to drive as nice as his truck, or a new hybrid......and most certainly wont be as reliable, or maint. free. Again, each to his own. I'm a dealer Tech and can fix anything, and could probably drive most beaters, without issue....but I dont WANT to.

The notion that a 20 year old car is a "beater" is uninformed. There are plenty of 20 year old cars, including probably owned by many Bitog members, that are not beaters. I have several myself. Just because something is a bit older, doesn't make it worn out claptrap. If maintained, cars can reach 40 or 50 years without much effort. So 20 years is about 1/2 life for modern cars.

 

[doublebase]

I think it's a psychological thing too...seeing every fill up inching closer to $100 (my wife's car is $100 to fill up from empty) knowing that I could probably be driving the same amount of miles per tank I am now on 12 gallons versus 23. Is $3000 a year saved gonna have THAT dramatic of an effect on my bottom line...probably not.

Yup, I agree - it definitely could be a psychological thing for sure. Watching those numbers, knowing you could do something about it. Yeah I can see that and I’d probably feel the same way (and have in the past).

 

[TeamZero]

Really?
How does your math work out? I'm curious. What was the cost of the car, is it on a loan, what are the interest terms, what's your insurance, and mpgs and driving?

New Prius is $30,000. 55mpg.

See my calculations above. Give Prius 55mpg, and contrast that with a 35mpg $3000 used Civic, same class of car. Absent you driving 100k miles annually, you'd never surpass the used Civic value. If you're driving 30k miles annually, saving maybe $3k annually, you'd need probably at least 11 years, to surpass the value of the used Civic. Probably closer to 15 years, factoring taxes, registration, and insurance.

If like most people you drive 10-15k miles annually, you "break even" at about year 20, maybe year 25. lol.

Car on a partial loan at 3%. Insurance less than the 2008 XC70 I sold. Prius gets 4L per 100k, XC60 she was driving gets 10.5L per 100k Fuel is 1.39 L right now, plus XC takes prem. fuel(1.65 i think?). .....can use regular, but there is a mileage hit. Why would I go from a mint XC60 to an old rusty tin can civic? Not a chance. I'm in Canada, the 3k civic is a rot box, barely able to be on the road. And she will put about 40k klms on a year, and we also need AWD. If you don't mind 30k plus a year in a old tin can, thats fine....but I'm not gonna do it.

 

[TeamZero]

The notion that a 20 year old car is a "beater" is uninformed. There are plenty of 20 year old cars, including probably owned by many Bitog members, that are not beaters. I have several myself. Just because something is a bit older, doesn't make it worn out claptrap. If maintained, cars can reach 40 or 50 years without much effort. So 20 years is about 1/2 life for modern cars.

Not in the rust belt. I work on cars for a living, a good one at that. The cost to keep a 20yr old car on the road is quite high. Even If doing work yourself, its still not cheap. And the guy is driving a newer comfortable truck on a long commute.....that would be a nice drive dropping to a 3k beater small car....no thanks.

 

[doublebase]

If the goal is to SAVE MONEY then the advice to "buy a new car" is wildly wrong. Between the taxes, registration, increased insurance (generally double the price of a used car), and the immediately 20% depreciation hit you're going to lose 5 years worth of price of driving and gasoline. E.g. on a $30,000 new car, you're going to pay $3000 in taxes/registration right out of the gate, lose probably $6000 in year one on depreciation, and pay larger insurance premiums. Year 1 is a $10,000 hit. By year 10, you've lost probably $20,000 in depreciation. I don't care how "fuel efficient" a car is, you'd need 40 years of heavy driving to break even, if you ever do break even, versus buying a $3000 20-year old Accord, Camry, etc. something reliable and safe that gets 25-30mpgs hwy.

Let's crunch some numbers, assuming a 30,000 annual commute, which is ~3x national average.
Car A, 20 year old V6.
30,000 / 25 mpg (a typical V6 from early 2000 era) = 1200 gallons of fuel x $4 per gallon (national average) = $4,800 annual fuel costs.

Car B, brand new XYZ
30,000 / 45 mpg (an excellent modern fuel efficient ride) = 667 gallons of fuel x $4 per gallon = $2, 667 annual fuel cost.

Difference is $2133, in this extreme driving situation. Cut that in half if the distances are the national average, so about $1600 annually difference.

There's FAR MORE important aspects in a car than fuel economy IMHO.

Plus, again, while car A is ~40% less efficient, it's 90% less expensive up front and insurance and taxes. Ownership over a 10 year period, car A crushes car B for ownership costs. Car B represents better economy, but at the costs of many tens of thousands of dollars in 10 years over car A.

I think you’re not adding to the equation what a 20 year old car is. First, the Mileage of a 20 year old car is through the roof (200,000 plus). Second, the guy is saying he’s driving 30,000 plus miles a year...you going to do that in a 20 year old car with over 200,000 miles already on it? Best case scenario you’re right back where you started (buying another car, paying sales tax, title, registration and plates all over again). Third, if you do keep that car for a few years, what are you going to be spending in repairs? Not maintenance, but repairs...because if you have to put a transmission in it you’re looking at adding at least $2,000 for a remanufactured unit. Never mind your maintenance. You have a 20 year old car, how many tires, wheel bearings, brakes, alignments, ball joints, is that car going to need? How much time do you waste dropping it off for repairs and dealing with that time consuming, aggravating, stuff? And after all this you’ll be back on autrader to find another one.

So, there is many things to consider.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I think you’re not adding to the equation what a 20 year old car is. First, the Mileage of a 20 year old car is through the roof (200,000 plus). Second, the guy is saying he’s driving 30,000 plus miles a year...you going to do that in a 20 year old car with over 200,000 miles already on it? Best case scenario you’re right back where you started (buying another car, paying sales tax, title, registration and plates all over again). Third, if you do keep that car for a few years, what are you going to be spending in repairs? Not maintenance, but repairs...because if you have to put a transmission in it you’re looking at adding at least $2,000 for a remanufactured unit. Never mind your maintenance. You have a 20 year old car, how many tires, wheel bearings, brakes, alignments, ball joints, is that car going to need? How much time do you waste dropping it off for repairs and dealing with that time consuming, aggravating, stuff? And after all this you’ll be back on autrader to find another one.

So, there is many things to consider.

WE must live in wildly different communities. I routinely see $3000 cars, 100-150 miles, in good condition. Sure, they probably need some maintenance, new tires, a few belts and hoses, plugs, wires, all fluids serviced, a few odds and ends. Nothing a shade tree mechanic or someone with minimal understanding, taking it to the garage etc. That's $1000. Now you have a $4000 car at its 1/2 life point. Even piling on 30,000 miles annually, you'll get 5 solid years out of it. Maybe 10 more years. That entire remaining life of that car, will cost less than the first MONTH of the taxes and depreciation on a new car... ONE MONTH tax and depreciation ...

 

[doublebase]

Not in the rust belt. I work on cars for a living, a good one at that. The cost to keep a 20yr old car on the road is quite high. Even If doing work yourself, its still not cheap. And the guy is driving a newer comfortable truck on a long commute.....that would be a nice drive dropping to a 3k beater small car....no thanks.

I honestly have never heard anyone even say...if maintained, cars can reach 40 or 50 years without much effort. Where? 50 years? Without much effort?

Where I am, ten years can’t be done without effort, never mind 50. I once kept a car 17 years and 289,000 miles...almost every square inch of that car was replaced (many of it twice, some of it three times). When I finally sold it, it needed brake lines (again), a muffler (for the fourth time), tires and brakes. And this was a very reliable, Honda Accord. Extremely well maintained.

 

[doublebase]

WE must live in wildly different communities. I routinely see $3000 cars, 100-150 miles, in good condition. Sure, they probably need some maintenance, new tires, a few belts and hoses, plugs, wires, all fluids serviced, a few odds and ends. Nothing a shade tree mechanic or someone with minimal understanding, taking it to the garage etc. That's $1000. Now you have a $4000 car at its 1/2 life point. Even piling on 30,000 miles annually, you'll get 5 solid years out of it. Maybe 10 more years. That entire remaining life of that car, will cost less than the first MONTH of the taxes and depreciation on a new car... ONE MONTH tax and depreciation ...

Ok, but you mentioned a 20 year old car...and maybe I could find a 20 year old car with 150,000 miles on it (although that would be low mileage and higher priced), but it’s still a 20 year old car. 20 years is a lot to ask of a car...just the rubber bushings and suspension components alone would need replacement. Now maybe you can do a little here and there as it comes, but things are going to need to be replaced. And those are the little things. Never mind a transmission that pops, or engine. Then you’re done.

But no, I don’t see many $3,000 dollar cars in good condition with 100,000 miles on them. I see $3,000 dollar cars with problems trying to be dumped on someone else. The good condition cars with 100,000 miles are sitting in the $7,000-$10,000 range, and they’re not exactly gems either.

I’m not saying deals aren’t to be had or can’t be found, they can, but where I’m from no, you aren’t going to find a car that you can safely put 30,000 miles a year on for $3,000 grand. Maybe pull a year in a beater? Sure, see that from time to time, but I don’t think you’ll have much success trying to string 2-3 years together doing that. IMO

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I honestly have never heard anyone even say...if maintained, cars can reach 40 or 50 years without effort. Where? 50 years? Without much effort?

Where I am, ten years can’t be done without effort, never mind 50. I once kept a car 17 years and 289,000 miles...almost every square inch of that car was replaced (many of it twice, some of it three times). When I finally sold it, it needed brake lines (again), a muffler (for the fourth time), tires and brakes. And this was a very reliable, Honda Accord. Extremely well maintained.

I have 3 immediate neighbors that drive ancient vehicles as daily drivers. One has a Chevy Pre-Nova or Nova II, which would make it mid 1960s. That's over 50 years old. Another neighbor has a ancient Ford pickup, F100 or F150. Really old, 1980s era, maybe 1970s. And a car that's so old I cannot even identify it. Maybe 1950s. These are their daily drivers.... Not hard at all to maintain. Mechanically very simple.

The AVERAGE age of the vehicles I see in my neighborhood range from 1990s to early 2000s. That puts the average cars in my neighborhood 20 to 30 years old. I see almost nothing in my neighborhood newer than 2010. And I see a LOT of 1980s vehicles around here.

 

[doublebase]

I have 3 immediate neighbors that drive ancient vehicles as daily drivers. One has a Chevy Pre-Nova or Nova II, which would make it mid 1960s. That's over 50 years old. Another neighbor has a ancient Ford pickup, F100 or F150. Really old, 1980s era, maybe 1970s. And a car that's so old I cannot even identify it. Maybe 1950s. These are their daily drivers.... Not hard at all to maintain. Mechanically very simple.

The AVERAGE age of the vehicles I see in my neighborhood range from 1990s to early 2000s. That puts the average cars in my neighborhood 20 to 30 years old. I see almost nothing in my neighborhood newer than 2010. And I see a LOT of 1980s vehicles around here.

We definitely live in different environments then. Where I am, it simply couldn’t happen. Rust would make it nearly impossible to daily drive more than 20 years without MAJOR repair. Major.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Ok, but you mentioned a 20 year old car...and maybe I could find a 20 year old car with 150,000 miles on it (although that would be low mileage and higher priced), but it’s still a 20 year old car. 20 years is a lot to ask of a car...just the rubber bushings and suspension components alone would need replacement. Now maybe you can do a little here and there as it comes, but things are going to need to be replaced. And those are the little things. Never mind a transmission that pops, or engine. Then you’re done.

But no, I don’t see many $3,000 dollar cars in good condition with 100,000 miles on them. I see $3,000 dollar cars with problems trying to be dumped on someone else. The good condition cars with 100,000 miles are sitting in the $7,000-$10,000 range, and they’re not exactly gems either.

I’m not saying deals aren’t to be had or can’t be found, they can, but where I’m from no, you aren’t going to find a car that you can safely put 30,000 miles a year on for $3,000 grand. Maybe pull a year in a beater? Sure, see that from time to time, but I don’t think you’ll have much success trying to string 2-3 years together doing that. IMO

I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about.

I just looked at Craigslist locally. This is literally the 3rd car I looked at. This search took me less time than typing this response, maybe 40 seconds.

A 1999 Mercury V8, with 146k miles. Will do 25mpg on the road. These are tanks. Safe, reliable, former fleet cars, easy to work on, and will go 300k miles if maintained. At 30k per year, you'd pile on 5 years of trouble free driving. If all highway, you might get 500k miles on this car. Look at how clean and well cared for this car is! $2000. Two grand. I'm tempted to go buy it but I see deals like this all the time.

1999 Mercury Grand Marquis --WHOLESALE TO THE PUBLIC - cars & trucks...

This car is super clean in and out. Runs drives looks great. 8cyl automatic leather tires like new Tires 146kCall John on his cellphone at More pics at www.superiorautowholesalers.net THE CASH PRICE...

harrisburg.craigslist.org

 

[CharlesInCharge]

4th car I looked at, a 4 cylinder Mirage with 118k miles, super clean. Probably get 30-35mph hwy. Only $1900.

That's pocket change, when comparing to the Prius mentioned above. Can probably get 20 more years of all hwy driving on this car.

2001 Mitsubishi mirage -WHOLESALE TO THE PUBLIC - cars & trucks - by...

This car is super clean in and out. Runs drives looks great. 4cyl automatic 118k Gas Saver Come see and drive it. Call John on his cellphone at Priced to sell fast first come first serv. WE ARE...

reading.craigslist.org

 

[PimTac]

Wait until you see the car in person.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

5th car I've looked at, a 1989 Honda Accord with only 92k miles for just $3500. A 4 cylinder, probably ultra reliable and excellent MPGs.

1989 Honda Accord LX-i coupe - cars & trucks - by owner - vehicle...

long description but please read before contacting - this car was bought new by my grandfather in 1989 - was a garage kept in florida it's whole life - until we moved it up here spring 2020. It was...

pennstate.craigslist.org

 

[CharlesInCharge]

The point is, this has taken me 5 minutes. Any serious search will reveal 100 cars to pick from locally, narrow it down, go look at them with cash. This is not hard to find an excellent 20 year old car for low money.

 

[Nick1994]

If the goal is to SAVE MONEY then the advice to "buy a new car" is wildly wrong. Between the taxes, registration, increased insurance (generally double the price of a used car), and the immediately 20% depreciation hit you're going to lose 5 years worth of price of driving and gasoline. E.g. on a $30,000 new car, you're going to pay $3000 in taxes/registration right out of the gate, lose probably $6000 in year one on depreciation, and pay larger insurance premiums. Year 1 is a $10,000 hit. By year 10, you've lost probably $20,000 in depreciation. I don't care how "fuel efficient" a car is, you'd need 40 years of heavy driving to break even, if you ever do break even, versus buying a $3000 20-year old Accord, Camry, etc. something reliable and safe that gets 25-30mpgs hwy.

Let's crunch some numbers, assuming a 30,000 annual commute, which is ~3x national average.
Car A, 20 year old V6.
30,000 / 25 mpg (a typical V6 from early 2000 era) = 1200 gallons of fuel x $4 per gallon (national average) = $4,800 annual fuel costs.

Car B, brand new XYZ
30,000 / 45 mpg (an excellent modern fuel efficient ride) = 667 gallons of fuel x $4 per gallon = $2, 667 annual fuel cost.

Difference is $2133, in this extreme driving situation. Cut that in half if the distances are the national average, so about $1600 annually difference.

There's FAR MORE important aspects in a car than fuel economy IMHO.

Plus, again, while car A is ~40% less efficient, it's 90% less expensive up front and insurance and taxes. Ownership over a 10 year period, car A crushes car B for ownership costs. Car B represents better economy, but at the costs of many tens of thousands of dollars in 10 years over car A.

Buying a used car with unknown history to put 30k miles a year on? Doesn't sound ideal to me. Used cars need repairs and eat into whatever savings you may think they will need. You also need to be able to show up to work on time, and not get a 50+ mile tow. When it's down for repairs, what are you supposed to drive to work?

I had big ideas to take my Camry to 300k+ miles. I retired it at 228k miles from the daily driven life, it's a back burner car at 244k miles now. Put 900 miles on it in a week and a half a couple months ago while my Genesis was in for repairs. Did great. Have no concerns about long trips, but I've learned there's more to life than driving a piece of crap all day. When it's all said and done, the price difference isn't astronomical to have a sensible new car that you daily drive.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Sorta surprised at the worry about driving an older car, especially on a gearhead and oil-nut forum. Oh well.

 

[PimTac]

Sorta surprised at the worry about driving an older car, especially on a gearhead and oil-nut forum. Oh well.

Since you are “new” here there are a number of things you will catch on to as time goes by.