Iron in M1 UOA's?

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
If EM were sued by Ashland, you'd better believe the issue would be 'settled'. There is no way in [censored] EM would let something like this get out to the public, even if it were more than a few affected batches. Not when there are payoffs and gag orders. Any OEM that contracted M1 for specialty factory fills and didn't honour any warranty claims directly related to it would be bound to the contract terms no less than the manufacturer of the corrosion-prone GM fuel level sensors who's contract had to expire before GM could resource the part!

Well, OK, so now the all the conspiracy theories are oozing out between your words.

With regard the auto-manufacturers, I was not only referring to the factory fills, but to when the auto companies set standards that Mobil claims it meets. If I were one of those auto companies and there was a oil company making oil with my certification on it that did not meet that standard, I would raise some major stink and probably sue them to cover my extra warranty claim expenses. Historically, auto companies are not exactly close friends with oil companies.

 

[demarpaint]

Mark888 do you use Mobil 1, if so for how long?

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Mark888 do you use Mobil 1, if so for how long?

I mentioned in several previous posts that I used Mobil 1 5W-30 for 11 years in my last car which I just sold in Jan 2009. During that time, I only rarely was able to change the oil myself, so I had it done at oil change shops, and Mobil 1 was often the only synthetic available at these shops.

On my new car, I have done one oil change to Mobil 1 5W-20 EP.

But I am not a brand loyal type of person. That applies to cars, oil, and everything else.

 

[Max_Wander]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
If EM were sued by Ashland, you'd better believe the issue would be 'settled'. There is no way in [censored] EM would let something like this get out to the public, even if it were more than a few affected batches. Not when there are payoffs and gag orders. Any OEM that contracted M1 for specialty factory fills and didn't honour any warranty claims directly related to it would be bound to the contract terms no less than the manufacturer of the corrosion-prone GM fuel level sensors who's contract had to expire before GM could resource the part!

Well, OK, so now the all the conspiracy theories are oozing out between your words.

With regard the auto-manufacturers, I was not only referring to the factory fills, but to when the auto companies set standards that Mobil claims it meets. If I were one of those auto companies and there was a oil company making oil with my certification on it that did not meet that standard, I would raise some major stink and probably sue them to cover my extra warranty claim expenses. Historically, auto companies are not exactly close friends with oil companies.


Alas, this is the real world and there are very high stakes in which to protect. If you mean OEMs as in just random automaker, wouldnt they have to be aware of the problem? Even if they were, would it fit their interest to fork up the bucks to persue EM? Honda has M1 5w30 meeting their unqiue HTO-06 spec, but Seq IVA is unrelated, so Honda shouldnt be concerned in that particular aspect.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Mark888 do you use Mobil 1, if so for how long?

I mentioned in several previous posts that I used Mobil 1 5W-30 for 11 years in my last car which I just sold in Jan 2009. During that time, I only rarely was able to change the oil myself, so I had it done at oil change shops, and Mobil 1 was often the only synthetic available at these shops.

On my new car, I have done one oil change to Mobil 1 5W-20 EP.

But I am not a brand loyal type of person. That applies to cars, oil, and everything else.


Unfortunately I don't read every thread, thanks for answering me. I used Mobil 1 a lot longer than you, making the change was real easy for me, thanks to BITOG. I was brand loyal, Mobil 1 was the only synthetic my van saw from around 1989 until December 2009. I lost faith in XOM, and don't think I'll go back anytime soon.

 

[rewote500]

Anyone seen this before? This guys says he went 18K on M1 in a camaro. Link below...

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
Alas, this is the real world and there are very high stakes in which to protect. If you mean OEMs as in just random automaker, wouldnt they have to be aware of the problem? Even if they were, would it fit their interest to fork up the bucks to persue EM? Honda has M1 5w30 meeting their unqiue HTO-06 spec, but Seq IVA is unrelated, so Honda shouldnt be concerned in that particular aspect.

Actually, I disagree about the stakes. As I mentioned many times, I own a fairly large amount of stock in BP, but I bash Castrol Syntec all the time. The financial success of an oil company depends primarily on the price of crude oil and natural gas. The refining and marketing segments are not going to make or break an oil company, and when oil and natural gas prices get high, the M&R is usually a break-even situation at best.

Second, your statement about Honda specs not caring about Seq IVA seems doubtful to me since this link says it is required for the API SL and SM specifications which Honda (and everyone else) requires according to the Owners Manuals.:

"According to Valvoline, the claim is based on the industry standard Sequence IVA test. The Sequence IVA is the industry standard test for determining wear performance of an engine oil and is required to meet the API SL and SM requirements."
http://www.jobbersworld.com/July 24,2008.htm

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Unfortunately I don't read every thread, thanks for answering me. I used Mobil 1 a lot longer than you, making the change was real easy for me, thanks to BITOG. I was brand loyal, Mobil 1 was the only synthetic my van saw from around 1989 until December 2009. I lost faith in XOM, and don't think I'll go back anytime soon.

Castrol seems to think that M1 EP is about the same as Edge in terms of engine wear, because they only claim that that Edge is "unsurpassed" by M1 EP (while they claim that Edge is 8X better than regular M1). So I don't know what is better than M1 EP at this point. Edge does not even come in 5W-20 in the US yet, and even if it did, it is still $5.50 more per 5-quart jug.

 

[GrampsintheSand]

Originally Posted By: rewote500
So for those of you who are not using M1, what are you using?

We gave up on Mobil1 after years of loyal use and excellent results. Mobil changed, we didn't. Love the Shaeffers Oil.

 

[GrampsintheSand]

Originally Posted By: rewote500
Anyone seen this before? This guys says he went 18K on M1 in a camaro. Link below...

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

Sure. Seven years ago.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: GrampsintheSand
Sure. Seven years ago.

Those tests where done after they switched from Tri-Synthetic to SuperSyn. Fe levels look just as high back then as there are now.

 

[CSM746]

Perhaps a little off topic, but I have a 2002 Cadillac de Ville with 54K original. Used M1 10W30 silver & EP for the last 40K. Looking through the oil fill neck into the valve cover I see a "varnish" which is light caramel in color. Doesn't wipe off and appears not to have any noticeable debris in it. Seems to be something that happened in the last 10K. Anything to worry about?

 

[RI_RS4]

1stTruck

I've never said that you could make oil comparisons using data from 2 engines of different design. What you can do is make extremely valuable comparisons between engines of the same type, such as the RS4. By getting owners to band together and perform UOA through the same lab (Dyson) which has known accuracy, we have been able to compile enough data (over 100 oil samples to date) to make meaningful comparisons that are sound science. The same could be done on BITOG, if enough owners of one engine type would agree to have their analysis done in similar ways.

Yes there are errors. All measurements have errors. But once we have good trend lines for the engine, we can begin to see outliers and attribute them to potential sources. For the case of Fe it's a slam dunk for RLI Biosyn in this engine. It just plain comes in with 2X to 3X less wear, well outside the error bounds of the measurement variation.

Let me be clear, to be truly useful, you need to trend an engine with multiple UOA's. As you add additional UOA from multiple engines of the same type, you can begin to perform good interpretation.

As for false positives and negatives, you'd have to give me specific examples of what you're talking about.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: CSM746
Perhaps a little off topic, but I have a 2002 Cadillac de Ville with 54K original. Used M1 10W30 silver & EP for the last 40K. Looking through the oil fill neck into the valve cover I see a "varnish" which is light caramel in color. Doesn't wipe off and appears not to have any noticeable debris in it. Seems to be something that happened in the last 10K. Anything to worry about?

I saw something similar on my 1998 Camry. It was on a plastic splash guard inside the valve cover, and the residue did not come off. Consensus among Toyota experts was that is was not a concern, and happened with all oils.

The paranoia about M1 is getting out of hand, because there is no evidence whatsoever that M1 causes any deposits to form, only that (supposedly) it has more engine wear.

 

[CSM746]

Thanks Mark888...also this is on the plastic valve cover, etc. I have used Mobil 1 in BMW motorcycle, various cars, etc for well over 20 yrs with no issues. I am not opposed to trying new brands, but have enjoyed success with the product.

 

[1sttruck]

"For the case of Fe it's a slam dunk for RLI Biosyn in this engine. It just plain comes in with 2X to 3X less wear, well outside the error bounds of the measurement variation."

If you're talking about the Audi data that you've posted previously then no, no slam dunk, as the data has the same problems described in the article that you've posted. The sample sizes are too small with respect to the variation to make any credible statements about any of the samples of oils that were presented. All that you can do is to lump everything into one large sample.

 

[tropic]

Originally Posted By: rewote500
So for those of you who are not using M1, what are you using?

Valvoline SynPower 5w-20 in my Honda, Chevron Supreme 20w-50 in my Spitfire, and Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 in a Tacoma that I've taken over payments on (hopefully not for too long).

Kinda O/T, but I share demarpaint's feelings about XOM. I'm not really following the 4x-8x-9x better wear protection circus, but XOM's failure to provide evidence that its product passed/passes the Seq IVa test for SM certification has lost my respect for their company. Wal-Mart was kind enough to offer store credit for my unopened XOM products, and I've taken them up on it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: tropic
Originally Posted By: rewote500
So for those of you who are not using M1, what are you using?

Valvoline SynPower 5w-20 in my Honda, Chevron Supreme 20w-50 in my Spitfire, and Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 in a Tacoma that I've taken over payments on (hopefully not for too long).

Kinda O/T, but I share demarpaint's feelings about XOM. I'm not really following the 4x-8x-9x better wear protection circus, but XOM's failure to provide evidence that its product passed/passes the Seq IVa test for SM certification has lost my respect for their company. Wal-Mart was kind enough to offer store credit for my unopened XOM products, and I've taken them up on it.


Glad we're in agreement. I unloaded most of my Mobil 1 stash at Wal-Mart as well. I'm thinking Ashland is onto facts and that is why XOM hasn't sued them. But we haven't heard the last of this either. These threads keep resurfacing, or coming back in another form. It's all good though, and if/when XOM retaliates we will be the first to know.

 

[RI_RS4]

1st, that is just not true. I've calculated the variations as proposed in the article and they are less than the variations that we measure.

 

[RI_RS4]

Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
"For the case of Fe it's a slam dunk for RLI Biosyn in this engine. It just plain comes in with 2X to 3X less wear, well outside the error bounds of the measurement variation."

If you're talking about the Audi data that you've posted previously then no, no slam dunk, as the data has the same problems described in the article that you've posted. The sample sizes are too small with respect to the variation to make any credible statements about any of the samples of oils that were presented. All that you can do is to lump everything into one large sample.


1st, please be more specific.

What are the "same problems" that you believe the article discusses. I'll be happy to review them with you point by point, and perform an error analysis.

Please be specific with regards to the sample size problems that you elude to.