In general, could this all point to the design of the vehicle? There are drivers who cared less about startup, correct viscosity of oil, maintenance, etc. that ended with a longer lasting vehicle than another one of the same year but different make/model. If one was to compare similar make/model/year of a vehicle, sure, the startup, oil, and other factors can come into play, but i'd still think that the better designed vehicles with poor management can still outlast a well taken care vehicle with a poor design. How can this all be? I remembered well back when a well designed vehicle with better coated pistons, better/newer tranny, better seals, etc that've seen alot of abuse and poor recognition that outlasted a poorer designed vehicle that was taken well care of to the "T" and the well-maintained vehicle still ended up in someone's junkyard. Some but not all vehicles these days are being built better and are extremely tested by manufacturers to withstand impressive abuse or extreme wear & tear.
I’m Tired of Everybody Saying UOA Matters and Filtration Counts
- Thread starter AEHaas
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Just a fancy way of saying we are too anal.
Yeah, I remember in high school back in the 70's, my buddy had a vega and he did everything humanly possible to care for that car. He changed oil every 2000 miles, coated it everywhere with rustproofing, kept it clean and babied it. It still didn't last long while my 76 Honda civic ran forever with very little maintance. In the end, rust still killed the Honda but the engine with maybe 200K was still good.
For me, all of this is just a "hobby." I find this a fun way to kill time at work/home, obtain some insight (on cars and people), and cheer on my type of oils that I use. I'm happy when my oil type turns in a good UOA. If it turns in a bad one, I blame the couch (owner) of the car. LOL....
Does this oil stuff really matter? Don't thinks so... Since 1975, I have never owned a car with any oil related engine trouble. Never.. And I usually keep them for at least 120K and up to 238K miles ('86 Mazda GLC).
Currently, I own:
'95 Neon 212K miles,
'89 Honda 141K miles,
'03 Sable 41K miles,
'05 F-350 PSD 11K miles.
Funny thing is, I wouldn't dare use that old type of oil in my current cars and truck today. LOL..
Got to go now to see if anyone turned in a new UOA..
Does this oil stuff really matter? Don't thinks so... Since 1975, I have never owned a car with any oil related engine trouble. Never.. And I usually keep them for at least 120K and up to 238K miles ('86 Mazda GLC).
Currently, I own:
'95 Neon 212K miles,
'89 Honda 141K miles,
'03 Sable 41K miles,
'05 F-350 PSD 11K miles.
Funny thing is, I wouldn't dare use that old type of oil in my current cars and truck today. LOL..
Got to go now to see if anyone turned in a new UOA..
Gee-do you think various engine designs might play a factor as well?
First, not everybody says it. I would suspect that there are more people that don't do UOA's than do them, but I don't have any scientific evidence to back it up. And I think I'll stick with doing an occasional UOA-sure makes it easy to spot potential problems such as coolant, abnormal wear and fuel dilution early on.
Can we assume that an engine that fails at 300k miles is an engineering failure ??
I think the greatest engineering feat is having a 1000hr lightbulb burn out at 1001 hrs.
P.B.
I think the greatest engineering feat is having a 1000hr lightbulb burn out at 1001 hrs.
P.B.
Another issue may come to mind is how many miles (be it 150k, 200k, 300k, 400k, etc etc)would it take to determine that an engine has lasted a very long time?
I think the greatest engineering feat for the future is when a vehicle is engineered to guranteed to last over a century. Although i doubt this would happen due to engineering flaws and competitors, etc. nature of the "game"...
I think the greatest engineering feat for the future is when a vehicle is engineered to guranteed to last over a century. Although i doubt this would happen due to engineering flaws and competitors, etc. nature of the "game"...
This is all good stuff!
Variables - I agree. Countless numbers of them! I think in the end though, it comes down to just doing your best as an owner and caretaker...much like that for a fellow human being even (less ownership mind you). This may be to follow the instructions given, try something that you feel might be the best thing based on "facts" learned from one's own experience...and then there's just hope. Hope in the sense of the object in question's integrety in design and construction. There's a reason those big rig diesel engines weight over 2,000lbs dry and last as long as they do - prevention of case and load structure deformation and resultant misalignment from the produced torque loads, less average thermal cycles due to longer operation times with gradual warm-up and cool down cycles (thermal deformation prevention). The balance of load bearing areas designed for the normal heavy load operation rather than occasional spirts with a greater goal of lubricant drag reduction for the sake of overall better economy for the average consumer vehicle (people/grocery mover).
It comes down to inital intention of design, proper materials in construction based on complimentary/non-interfering properties as well as fluids and so forth. Then the conditions of use in terms of environment exposure, cycle stresses, demands of the user, and proper maintenance procedures in a timely manor that keeps things well in tolerance.
There's so much to consider in attepting to keep a vehicle forever...one could become totally consumed (and exhausted), and yet have little effective ability in the grand scheme of things. Nothing lasts for ever, but can be interesting and humbling to understand as much as one can as for just what's involved. On top of all this, there's everything else in life to consider.
Thanks to all those who seek understanding and further developements, and work to maintain and push for higher standards. And thanks to everyone that shares their knowledge to the less experienced. This is all fascinating information, and can lead to a greater appreciation of other things in life even though they seem to require much less if any tending to, though one still has an influence - interdependency.
[ January 05, 2006, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
Variables - I agree. Countless numbers of them! I think in the end though, it comes down to just doing your best as an owner and caretaker...much like that for a fellow human being even (less ownership mind you). This may be to follow the instructions given, try something that you feel might be the best thing based on "facts" learned from one's own experience...and then there's just hope. Hope in the sense of the object in question's integrety in design and construction. There's a reason those big rig diesel engines weight over 2,000lbs dry and last as long as they do - prevention of case and load structure deformation and resultant misalignment from the produced torque loads, less average thermal cycles due to longer operation times with gradual warm-up and cool down cycles (thermal deformation prevention). The balance of load bearing areas designed for the normal heavy load operation rather than occasional spirts with a greater goal of lubricant drag reduction for the sake of overall better economy for the average consumer vehicle (people/grocery mover).
It comes down to inital intention of design, proper materials in construction based on complimentary/non-interfering properties as well as fluids and so forth. Then the conditions of use in terms of environment exposure, cycle stresses, demands of the user, and proper maintenance procedures in a timely manor that keeps things well in tolerance.
There's so much to consider in attepting to keep a vehicle forever...one could become totally consumed (and exhausted), and yet have little effective ability in the grand scheme of things. Nothing lasts for ever, but can be interesting and humbling to understand as much as one can as for just what's involved. On top of all this, there's everything else in life to consider.
Thanks to all those who seek understanding and further developements, and work to maintain and push for higher standards. And thanks to everyone that shares their knowledge to the less experienced. This is all fascinating information, and can lead to a greater appreciation of other things in life even though they seem to require much less if any tending to, though one still has an influence - interdependency.
[ January 05, 2006, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
I suspect the life of an engine in an automobile has a lot more to do with the driving habits fo the owner than to do with the oil, OCI, or filter used during the service.
I see teenagers and post-teens who get in their Mustangs start it up, and burn rubber on the way out of the parking lots. These kids do not seem to get long life out of their engines.
I see adults who take their Mustangs to the race track, carefully warm up the engine, and take a few warm up laps before going full bore and running the snot out of the car for 20 minutes (or more). These people get longer lives out of their engines than the street use from teenagers.
I suspect that oil is independent of engine life unless and until the driver's personality and operating conditions can be correlated.
I see teenagers and post-teens who get in their Mustangs start it up, and burn rubber on the way out of the parking lots. These kids do not seem to get long life out of their engines.
I see adults who take their Mustangs to the race track, carefully warm up the engine, and take a few warm up laps before going full bore and running the snot out of the car for 20 minutes (or more). These people get longer lives out of their engines than the street use from teenagers.
I suspect that oil is independent of engine life unless and until the driver's personality and operating conditions can be correlated.
There's an old joke that goes...
The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. On the other hand, the French eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.
Conclusion:
Eat & drink what you like. It's speaking English that kills you.
My deep philosophical musing: your car or truck is going to last as long as it's going to last. Most people who take reasonably good care of their cars can expect them to last a reasonably good while if they bought a reasonably good car to begin with (barring the fact that you don't run it into a lake or something). Splitting hairs over the exact moment to perform some maintenance routine is probably not going to significantly extend the longevity of your passenger car. When in doubt, follow Occam's razor.
Whether you just enjoy or truly need to filter 5 micron particles out of your oil and know what your magnesium count is, may happiness and good fortune find you in your work. It couldn't matter less to me, but then again, some people put cream and sugar in their coffee, and I don't lose any sleep over that either. If you want to **** in your gas tank because you heard on the internet that it will increase horsepower, then by ***, you can do it.
People have an amazing power to delude themselves when they are trying to find the magic bullet for their problems. If you can give someone empirically and rationally supported advice that will better their lives in a practical way, then by all means, do. There are gobs of simple, thoughtful, and creative ways to make your life easier. My grandma could do almost anything with baking soda, vinegar, and salt. Say the serentity prayer when your start your car every morning, and if you don't get the gas mileage you want, have an extra beer, or take the bus. /// end of rant
The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. On the other hand, the French eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.
Conclusion:
Eat & drink what you like. It's speaking English that kills you.
My deep philosophical musing: your car or truck is going to last as long as it's going to last. Most people who take reasonably good care of their cars can expect them to last a reasonably good while if they bought a reasonably good car to begin with (barring the fact that you don't run it into a lake or something). Splitting hairs over the exact moment to perform some maintenance routine is probably not going to significantly extend the longevity of your passenger car. When in doubt, follow Occam's razor.
Whether you just enjoy or truly need to filter 5 micron particles out of your oil and know what your magnesium count is, may happiness and good fortune find you in your work. It couldn't matter less to me, but then again, some people put cream and sugar in their coffee, and I don't lose any sleep over that either. If you want to **** in your gas tank because you heard on the internet that it will increase horsepower, then by ***, you can do it.
People have an amazing power to delude themselves when they are trying to find the magic bullet for their problems. If you can give someone empirically and rationally supported advice that will better their lives in a practical way, then by all means, do. There are gobs of simple, thoughtful, and creative ways to make your life easier. My grandma could do almost anything with baking soda, vinegar, and salt. Say the serentity prayer when your start your car every morning, and if you don't get the gas mileage you want, have an extra beer, or take the bus. /// end of rant
I recommend UOAs for GM 3.1 and 3.8 engines.
I use cheap dino oil and end up spending what M1
users do if I include the UOA cost but it catches GM headgasket leaks / lets you monitor them if you are in the winter or saving up for the repair.
I use cheap dino oil and end up spending what M1
users do if I include the UOA cost but it catches GM headgasket leaks / lets you monitor them if you are in the winter or saving up for the repair.
I will explain later but the short is that the last two posts by Mitch and John explain 90 percent of it in my book.
aehaas
aehaas
Well, if you want it to put it that way. i think driver's driving style and proper OCI (if abusing it or taking care of it) will count for nearly 80% of the engine's life. The other 20% would come from the reliability of the vehicle's design. Selecting just a particular grade of oil or oil filter due to some good seen UOA's really doesn't matter in my opiniion. The only difference in choosing one oil and/or oil filter from another is just due to mpg or horsepower. Any engine will be 'clean' and last a very long time if proper OCI(or maintenance) and driving style is kept in check.
"I see adults who take their Mustangs to the race track, carefully warm up the engine, and take a few warm up laps before going full bore and running the snot out of the car for 20 minutes (or more). These people get longer lives out of their engines than the street use from teenagers."
I agree. When I was driving bikes the average life of a motorcycle was very poor, but it was hard to accurately determine as most people put very few miles on them, but they typically hard miles with poor maintenance. On my last four bikes I got 60k miles (sold), 40k miles (stolen), 62k miles (sold), and 83k miles (stolen). They all saw a lot of extended high speed driving, but also saw diligent (tedious) maintenance, were warmed up, and I didn't do 'drag starts'.
Poor choice of oil, lack of proper oil changes, poor maintenance, etc., will detract from engine life, as will poor driving habits for the vehicle, but to get long life the engine and vehicle need to be capable of delivering it in the first place. We only got 120k miles from a Honda Civic, I suspect because the 1.5L engine wasn't up to the task of driving our family up and down the hill that we live on. We're over 197k on a Taurus, yes, lots of parts have been changed, but the engine and tranny haven't been opened and it's still running well. It seems that the 3.0L engine is better suited for our driving needs. I've seen and have heard of several gas engines in trucks get less than 100k miles when worked hard, engines that others can get 300k miles from in different situations.
I agree. When I was driving bikes the average life of a motorcycle was very poor, but it was hard to accurately determine as most people put very few miles on them, but they typically hard miles with poor maintenance. On my last four bikes I got 60k miles (sold), 40k miles (stolen), 62k miles (sold), and 83k miles (stolen). They all saw a lot of extended high speed driving, but also saw diligent (tedious) maintenance, were warmed up, and I didn't do 'drag starts'.
Poor choice of oil, lack of proper oil changes, poor maintenance, etc., will detract from engine life, as will poor driving habits for the vehicle, but to get long life the engine and vehicle need to be capable of delivering it in the first place. We only got 120k miles from a Honda Civic, I suspect because the 1.5L engine wasn't up to the task of driving our family up and down the hill that we live on. We're over 197k on a Taurus, yes, lots of parts have been changed, but the engine and tranny haven't been opened and it's still running well. It seems that the 3.0L engine is better suited for our driving needs. I've seen and have heard of several gas engines in trucks get less than 100k miles when worked hard, engines that others can get 300k miles from in different situations.
AEHaas
Tossing a chunk of tuna in with the cats, eh?
By my observations on the topic, UOA can tell you:
- if there's fuel or coolant or sand in the oil (directly)
- if something has gotten into the oil and is causing more wear than normal, although it's usually one of the three above
- if the oil itself is still useable or needs to be changed because its chemistry is exhausted.
That's it - it detects worn out oil and damaging contamination in the engine.
It really can't tell you much about the engine itself, it's actual rate of wear, or if it's about to have a catastrophic event. Most major engine problems are not wear related, they're the result of contamination, or they're an outright fracture of something important.
A worn-out oil pump would be the one possible exception. The pump itself doesn't actually fail, but a bearing somewhere that relies on it eventually doesn't get enough oil pressure and IT fails. Of course, the most likely cause of wear and reduced oil pump output is - you guessed it - contamination!
So is a UOA useful to maintain engine health, and can it contribute to a long and trouble-free life? Yes!
Can it predict how long the engine will last? Not even a little bit!
Cheers
JJ
Tossing a chunk of tuna in with the cats, eh?
By my observations on the topic, UOA can tell you:
- if there's fuel or coolant or sand in the oil (directly)
- if something has gotten into the oil and is causing more wear than normal, although it's usually one of the three above
- if the oil itself is still useable or needs to be changed because its chemistry is exhausted.
That's it - it detects worn out oil and damaging contamination in the engine.
It really can't tell you much about the engine itself, it's actual rate of wear, or if it's about to have a catastrophic event. Most major engine problems are not wear related, they're the result of contamination, or they're an outright fracture of something important.
A worn-out oil pump would be the one possible exception. The pump itself doesn't actually fail, but a bearing somewhere that relies on it eventually doesn't get enough oil pressure and IT fails. Of course, the most likely cause of wear and reduced oil pump output is - you guessed it - contamination!
So is a UOA useful to maintain engine health, and can it contribute to a long and trouble-free life? Yes!
Can it predict how long the engine will last? Not even a little bit!
Cheers
JJ
Also, designing and manufacturing automobiles is a business, and unless the initial costs skyrocket or there are more routine maintenance schedules, than it wouldn't be a good economic plan on their part.
The bigger, overall picture at this point seems not to support the idea of "for life" (than again, what do I know
). It seems like a catching selling point though - that is unless people tire quickly and feel a need for change (as for that being a true development of the person or resultant from all the induced feelings via advertisments???). Ah, to know thyself.
The bigger, overall picture at this point seems not to support the idea of "for life" (than again, what do I know
Everything has it's place and is valuable in it's own right. Because of what has been done yesterday, one may now know what isn't necessary today. Perhaps following an idea along the line to discover something new tomorrow with the information gained from yesterday's event as a guide, while all the while remembering the point of one's doings. Some discoveries have come out of the blue however, and much has come of it.
So much we think. So little we understand. So little still has one experienced. We exist with the knowledge gained from those past at hand, not that we are selves have discovered and know so intimately.
I can't say that just any one of us is going to make some out-of-the-blue discovery for anyone other than ourselves, but it is for ourselves that we work for in the end, all the while sharing leasure with others.
PS -
AEHaas...I'm sure there was a time when you weren't "tired of everyone saying UOA matters and filtration counts." You have learned things from all this, yes?
[ January 06, 2006, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
So much we think. So little we understand. So little still has one experienced. We exist with the knowledge gained from those past at hand, not that we are selves have discovered and know so intimately.
I can't say that just any one of us is going to make some out-of-the-blue discovery for anyone other than ourselves, but it is for ourselves that we work for in the end, all the while sharing leasure with others.
PS -
AEHaas...I'm sure there was a time when you weren't "tired of everyone saying UOA matters and filtration counts." You have learned things from all this, yes?
[ January 06, 2006, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Curious Kid ]
We have a 93 Grand Cherokee 4.0 with 287,000 on it that up until my wife-to-be bought it off my mom at 190,000 miles had bulk pennzoil changes at erratic intervals. NO engine work has ever been done on this vehicle, and I think it has even only had plugs changed once.
It has, however, eaten 3 trannies and is on its 4th. That said, it does leak from the rear main and sounds like a diesel, but I would not be afraid to drive it to California tomorrow.
We dont drive it much at all anymore and use it as a "chore jeep" to haul feed in for the cows in the winter. Our TDI Jetta is a little more wallet friendly.
It has, however, eaten 3 trannies and is on its 4th. That said, it does leak from the rear main and sounds like a diesel, but I would not be afraid to drive it to California tomorrow.
We dont drive it much at all anymore and use it as a "chore jeep" to haul feed in for the cows in the winter. Our TDI Jetta is a little more wallet friendly.
Any engines that live up to at least 250k miles with no major engine/tranny malfunction is pretty impressive in my book. I would love to examine the design and the maintenance of that vehicle.
Ok.. here's another take.. i believe all engines should use the thinnest oil that is specified in their owner's manual. Better oil flow and lubrication. No need to use any thicker weight than the thinnest recommended weighted oil. As for oil filters, you can use any one of them including Fram's for all i care and still good UOA results. The only thing i would think about is the oil/oil filter change intervals. In my book, i would change my oil/filter 3-5000 miles regardless of how heavy athe mount of additive package or how 'strong' the oil contains. Final thing about choosing either dino or synthetic.. choose synthetic. If one were to change their oils 2000 or less, i'd stick with dino. 2000 or more, synthetics.
Driving style... proper startup, warmup, oci, maintenance(air filter, spark plugs, fluid refills, battery, fuses, tires/wheels)is critical for an engine's life dependency.
Ok.. here's another take.. i believe all engines should use the thinnest oil that is specified in their owner's manual. Better oil flow and lubrication. No need to use any thicker weight than the thinnest recommended weighted oil. As for oil filters, you can use any one of them including Fram's for all i care and still good UOA results. The only thing i would think about is the oil/oil filter change intervals. In my book, i would change my oil/filter 3-5000 miles regardless of how heavy athe mount of additive package or how 'strong' the oil contains. Final thing about choosing either dino or synthetic.. choose synthetic. If one were to change their oils 2000 or less, i'd stick with dino. 2000 or more, synthetics.
Driving style... proper startup, warmup, oci, maintenance(air filter, spark plugs, fluid refills, battery, fuses, tires/wheels)is critical for an engine's life dependency.
That jeep 4.0 was a good engine. I had a jeep pickup that had broken a rocker arm at 160,000. I bought it that way real cheap. So I tore down the engine figuring a total rebuild and the thing was like new, so to speak. All clearances were within tolerance. It was very clean inside as well. I could of stuck a new rocker arm in and been done. I ended up putting in new bearings and reringing it since I had it apart but it wasn't necessary. The truck died in a fire years later after it was sold with well over 200k on it. It's diet was regular dino at 3000k or so oci's.
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