johnsmith - I'd hardly call your post a rant.... I enjoyed it immensely!
I’m Tired of Everybody Saying UOA Matters and Filtration Counts
- Thread starter AEHaas
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Too much reading not enough real life experience.
I agree.Too many people splitting hairs over crap that doesnt compute.Longest mileage I ever got was 220k out of a cavalier that oil got changed every whenever the **** I felt like it interval.It sounded like a perkins diesel at idle,but I drove her to the junkyard under her own power.Car wasnt worth the 90 bucks for a cat converter,so I let her rust in pieces.I used whatever was in the garage {5w30,20w50,bar and chain oil,slick 50,sometimes mixing them all together}I think anything will suffice given proper care{but anything I make payments on gets mobile one}Go figure?
There is no question light oils with a robust add' pac' is the way to go. Those who think otherwise ( across the pond )are tied to convention based on yesteryears motor oils.
Question- Most of us here are car enthusiasts to one extent or another and a main advantage of light oil is being able to " get on the gas " sooner rather later to quote Dr. Haas. My question is when is sooner too soon? Waiting for the oil to thin out to the equivalent of a 60wt @ 100c; i.e. cSt 25 should be fine. I would think a cSt of 35 should be OK for full thottle use. What about a kinematic vis' of 45-50 cSt which the typical vis' of a 20wt or light 30wt oil at 40C? Is that too soon to drop the hammer, let her rip, put peddle to the metal; curious minds want to know?
Peter
Question- Most of us here are car enthusiasts to one extent or another and a main advantage of light oil is being able to " get on the gas " sooner rather later to quote Dr. Haas. My question is when is sooner too soon? Waiting for the oil to thin out to the equivalent of a 60wt @ 100c; i.e. cSt 25 should be fine. I would think a cSt of 35 should be OK for full thottle use. What about a kinematic vis' of 45-50 cSt which the typical vis' of a 20wt or light 30wt oil at 40C? Is that too soon to drop the hammer, let her rip, put peddle to the metal; curious minds want to know?
Peter
I would say that very few cars die because the engine just wore out. Usually, its someone running out of water and blowing a headgasket, a spike in boost on a turbo that blows a clyinder, engine issues like detonation, running out of oil, and other such engine damage "events". These are far more of a threat to your engine than just "wearing out".
The problem as I see it is cavitation. My main exposure is in the exotic car population. In this crowd there are people who drive the car on the track, on trips and use it on a regular basis. These cars generally do well.
Then there are the “gold chain people,” the ones who buy exotic cars because the other gold chain people buy them. To impress their friends they start the car up and rev up the engine, maybe go for a short “thriller” ride at high RPM. They come home and the oil is just starting to warm up. The engine is shut down until the next exploit.
I say this with experience from some of the car engine re-builders. Cars come in from “known” gold chain people having only a thousand miles on the car over it’s 4 or 5 year life. Twice maybe the oil has been changed. The engines are ruined, low compression, noisy, smoke, loss of power.
I know of no study showing microscopic analyses of these cars but I suspect large chunks of material missing at all bearing surfaces.
This would certainly contribute to the concern of start up wear and why vehicles used mostly on long highway trips seem to last longer on the average.
aehaas
Then there are the “gold chain people,” the ones who buy exotic cars because the other gold chain people buy them. To impress their friends they start the car up and rev up the engine, maybe go for a short “thriller” ride at high RPM. They come home and the oil is just starting to warm up. The engine is shut down until the next exploit.
I say this with experience from some of the car engine re-builders. Cars come in from “known” gold chain people having only a thousand miles on the car over it’s 4 or 5 year life. Twice maybe the oil has been changed. The engines are ruined, low compression, noisy, smoke, loss of power.
I know of no study showing microscopic analyses of these cars but I suspect large chunks of material missing at all bearing surfaces.
This would certainly contribute to the concern of start up wear and why vehicles used mostly on long highway trips seem to last longer on the average.
aehaas
HAHA! Yeah.........everything I make payments on I'm obsessed with and the other rigs just get the leftovers that I scrounge up. I know how ya feel man.
I guess that the U.S. Military and major trucking firms are morons then?
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I don't think the military and truck fleet owners are overly concerned with startup wear, but rather with engines that don't crap out in the field under harsh conditions. With what oil, thick or thin, do you run a smaller risk of having bearing damage due to a nicely sized abrasive contamination particle getting embedded? Maybe some of us work on their car in clean room and make sure absolutely no contaminants get in the engine?
I myself don't see much reason to give a hoot about start-up wear. It's pretty much unavoidable and largely depending on your climate and how far you drive each time you take the car. The engines in the cars that I drove in cold European and North East American climates didn't seem to suffer from early clapped-out engines.
How long exactly will it take to accumulate even 150k miles on a 5-mile commuter vehicle?
I myself don't see much reason to give a hoot about start-up wear. It's pretty much unavoidable and largely depending on your climate and how far you drive each time you take the car. The engines in the cars that I drove in cold European and North East American climates didn't seem to suffer from early clapped-out engines.
How long exactly will it take to accumulate even 150k miles on a 5-mile commuter vehicle?
There are always those who claim noticeable gas mileage differences between 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, 5W-40, etc. Last time I checked the "Energy Conserving" properties were in the 2-3% range, which are, for anybody who's not driving totally consistently and under the same conditions, hardly noticeable. I only have to get stuck in a traffic jam for 30 minutes once and my whole average gas mileage is off for that tank.
I believe there is no way to possibly have the right conditions and the right environment to follow the normal startup/warmup or correct driving distance. All you can do is 'try' to minimize the wear during warmup and 'try' to drive for awhile if possible. I see it so difficult to do this, because many driver's live near surburbs, cities, divisions, that one can only hope to drive for more than 15 miles at a time. Plus, timing is everything, driver's these days are in such a rush, that they can not keep up with how many miles they have driven or how many minutes have passed by to think about fully, properly warming up their oil. There's too many variables and timing takes out the way people should maintain their vehicles.
I wish there was an edit or a redo button before posting.. =/ but i also believe vehicles that have driven longer, more miles at a time like highway drivers tend to have longer lasting vehicles. Since the consensus is that startup/warmup is the most critical part of engine wearing, driving longer seems to make sense to me.
I keep asking myself, how many "regular" highway drivers are there? Most people i know do short trips. They startup their car to go grocery shopping like 2 blocks away and come home. Most people do this kind of driving everyday. That's like 5 minutes of driving, you turn off to do whatever and drive home for 5 mins. That is not warmup at all. Someone should do a poll on short trips vs highway mile driving...
I keep asking myself, how many "regular" highway drivers are there? Most people i know do short trips. They startup their car to go grocery shopping like 2 blocks away and come home. Most people do this kind of driving everyday. That's like 5 minutes of driving, you turn off to do whatever and drive home for 5 mins. That is not warmup at all. Someone should do a poll on short trips vs highway mile driving...
Diffrent strokes for different folks plus it gives something for people to talk about. I personally use synthetics and have not yet had a car last 100K because i dont keep them that long but my truck on the other hand i do plan on keeping so unless it get totaled or stolen i hope she lasts many miles, how many thats up to her. Ive got a buddy that owns susuki sameri its at least 15 years old that has over 800K with no engine work done exept radiator that survived on nothing but dino oil. Hes now gone to max life oils for cars over 75K to help with some oil leaks he has. Other than a few leaks he says it runs like cherry. Its all about luck.
I agree that paying attention to minutiae of oil specs and brands or fanatically frequent oil changes seldom makes any difference in vehicle life. A coolant leak into oil or on the out of the car will kill an engine more often than oil related items.
Where I live, most vehicles are disposed of because the owner wanted a change, not mechanical failure. The ever present fact of transmission failure is another common factor in getting rid of a car. Even Honda has more than an average of tranmsission failures where I live. And that has surprised many local owners who did not get the durable vehicle they thought they would get with Honda.
Where I live, most vehicles are disposed of because the owner wanted a change, not mechanical failure. The ever present fact of transmission failure is another common factor in getting rid of a car. Even Honda has more than an average of tranmsission failures where I live. And that has surprised many local owners who did not get the durable vehicle they thought they would get with Honda.
Quote from Highroller:
I wish there was an edit or a redo button before posting.. =/ but i also believe vehicles that have driven longer, more miles at a time like highway drivers tend to have longer lasting vehicles.
I think this is true. I am a "highway driver" in the vehicle I drive most often. It gets started, and is not shut down for a minimum of 30-40 minutes each time, and 90% of the miles are steady cruise on the highway. I expect, (and have gotten) better than 200k from a car. My last four, (Chev Dustbuster van, Chev Cavalier, Pont Sunfire, Merc Villager) all had more than 200k at trade in. None used any oil to speak of, and ran well. None had trans issues. OTOH, my first Pontiac Montana was 3 years old, and had 46,000 on it with nothing but short trips to the grocery and school. The trans needed 600.00 worth of work (slipping, and very hard shift between 1-2, solenoid issues) and used some oil (about a half quart in 3k). IMHO, there is a lot to the short trip/long trip (or should you say, cold drive vs. hot drive) theory.
I wish there was an edit or a redo button before posting.. =/ but i also believe vehicles that have driven longer, more miles at a time like highway drivers tend to have longer lasting vehicles.
I think this is true. I am a "highway driver" in the vehicle I drive most often. It gets started, and is not shut down for a minimum of 30-40 minutes each time, and 90% of the miles are steady cruise on the highway. I expect, (and have gotten) better than 200k from a car. My last four, (Chev Dustbuster van, Chev Cavalier, Pont Sunfire, Merc Villager) all had more than 200k at trade in. None used any oil to speak of, and ran well. None had trans issues. OTOH, my first Pontiac Montana was 3 years old, and had 46,000 on it with nothing but short trips to the grocery and school. The trans needed 600.00 worth of work (slipping, and very hard shift between 1-2, solenoid issues) and used some oil (about a half quart in 3k). IMHO, there is a lot to the short trip/long trip (or should you say, cold drive vs. hot drive) theory.
Transmissions - all the more reason to have a manual. Yes, you have to worry about the clutch but no big deal. If you are really worried about startup wear then a pre-oiler would make sense, though I don't know anyone that has one.....
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