Illinois 15 dollar/hr incremental raise

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Originally Posted by ZZman
Seems a capitalism system helped get us into this financial mess too. As did wars and other things. No seriously, where would you make cuts to reduce the deficit. Would you raise revenue at all?

You have rebutted nothing I have put forth in regards to the implementation of socialism, with ANY FACTS that prove otherwise. You are doing nothing but droning the same nonsense over and over. I'm done with both you and this topic. I have already told you, and proven to you in detail, several posts ago you are living in an economic fantasy world that does not, and will never exist. You are never going to accept that, regardless of how many times it is economically and / or mathematically proven to you. Further discussion is pointless.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by ZZman
Seems a capitalism system helped get us into this financial mess too. As did wars and other things. No seriously, where would you make cuts to reduce the deficit. Would you raise revenue at all?

You have rebutted nothing I have put forth in regards to the implementation of socialism, with ANY FACTS that prove otherwise. You are doing nothing but droning the same nonsense over and over. I'm done with both you and this topic. I have already told you, and proven to you in detail, several posts ago you are living in an economic fantasy world that does not, and will never exist. You are never going to accept that, regardless of how many times it is economically and / or mathematically proven to you. Further discussion is pointless.


Hmmm. I thought I did with Scandinavian countries comment. Where there is a will there is a way!

But that is ok. I am sure you didn't want to say all the social programs you would cut and Fed jobs you would eliminatte.

Thanks for the interesting chat !
 
If you pay the same rate, you are giving up the same proportion of your pie. If you are paying a higher rate, you are being expected to give up more of what you earned.

Also, many conflate income with wealth tax. We see people cite how much wealth someone has. We don't have wealth taxes. How much someone has from prior earnings is irrelevant because, that money has already been taxed when it was income.

If a taxpayer is not paying the highest marginal rate, they got a tax cut. I don't understand why those taxpayers would cry when other taxpayers, those who were paying higher rates, are suddenly sad that others are treated more like they were being treated by the income tax system.

Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by 02SE


As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.


A flat tax would only be fair as if everybody made the same amount. A person making $30,000 paying a 10% tax makes a lot harder to live on than someone making a million dollars paying 10% tax. The simple fact is the more money you make the more money you have to live on regardless of the tax that you pay in a progressive system.


Nope.

Everybody paying the same tax rate is as fair as it gets.

What we have now is a progressively punitive tax rate. Although I did get a tax break this year, Thank You President Trump, I'm still paying far too high a percentage rate.

When I was working for minimum wage, I was determined to not stay at that pay rate. So I did what millions of others do, I learned new skills and furthered my education, so that eventually I would be able to earn more money.


How is it punitive? Don't you still have far more wealth and income than most people after paying your taxes?

Did paying a higher tax rate stop you from wanting to be successful or start your own company? I bet the answer is no.

If progressive taxes are punitive than low wages are punitive.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
I think more in terms of common good/Quality of life. Others think in terms of individual/family good.




This nation was founded upon the ideas of the Individual and family aka bill of rights etc etc etc.... Not the ideas of a fella with a large beard from across the Atlantic. Those "ideals" run 180 degrees out from what this country was founded upon. And that fella supported the destruction of the nuclear family... Why?? Because he believed the nuclear family structure supported a totally different economic system than his...
 
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"I am sorry but I don't see taxes as a punishment. They are an obligation to country and the common good"




Would you be willing to pay a 100% tax rate then?
 
Had to post this and inject some humor...hope I d/n cross the line.

[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by DejaVue
Originally Posted by ZZman

I do think I would like places like Canada and the Scandinavian countries.

Every time someone gives examples of socialist-type countries they think are good, they always name countries full of homogeneous European-type people and little diversity.

Because that is what most people want. Not a Cuba or Venezuela. Does that mean it couldn't work here? If Capitalism works elsewhere why couldn't that work here?

Denmark, (which has the type of socialism people like Oprah and you are always bragging about how much you want it here), has a total population of only 5.7 Million people. About the same as the state of Colorado. And virtually ALL of those 5.7 million people are well educated, high income earning white people. Who pay on average, a personal Income Tax Rate of 55.80 percent.

ZZman, it's important to consider demographics and culture. Americans can't even get coffee at Starbucks without a demographics and culture war happening. And that doesn't happen because of the price of coffee or tax rates.

For the last 20-50 years, America has been importing incredibly large numbers of new immigrants every year. Only 8% now come from Europe. They have an easier time getting citizenship than in the past, which means they have an easier time becoming voters. In the past, immigrants were happy to assimilate as Americans. Japanese immigrants would name their children things like "John" and "Jane" to assimilate better into the mainly western, Christian-based, European-type people and culture. Now, immigrants are told they should keep their "diversity," and lack of assimilation is celebrated. Mass immigration is destroying the chance at the type of socialism you want.

"Diverse" countries tend to need a strongman dictator or police state to hold them together. Notice the increased amount of law enforcement and censorship of speech being used in Scandinavian countries as they become more "diverse." John Cleese back in 2011 said London is no longer an English city. German police have told Germans not to wave the German flag because it might provoke migrants. Some of those countries now spend a lot of time and money having their police patrol Facebook and arrest people for types of speech Americans take for granted. Britain has basically outlawed jokes. Have you looked at Sweden's problems lately? Problems they imported.

Some Canadians have proudly told me how "diverse" Canada is. Such people think a country with lots of white Christians from England, Scotland, Ireland, and Germany is "diverse." And even that doesn't hold up overly well since Quebec has tried multiple times to become its own country.

If you want Scandinavia-type socialism, it takes more than just Scandinavia-type tax rates.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by billt460
In "decades gone by", people EARNED their "piece of the pie". They didn't expect the government to steal it for them from someone else. You didn't have people leeching off the government with every social program known to mankind. People pulled their own weight. The only people back then who received benefits from Social Security were the people who actually contributed and paid into those programs.

And there was no Medicare, Obama Care, Welfare, Food Stamps, and all the rest of the government dependent nonsense that started in 1965 with the, "Great Society". All of which have improved nothing, except to make people less dependent on themselves, and more on the government that is going bankrupt trying to pay for it all.

Kids worked their way through college, instead of taking out loans, only to default on them. All the while screaming how the government, "owes them" a free education, job, house, health care, along with everything else they think they deserve. That they base only on the fact they consume oxygen. Back then people paid their own way, and those who came here from south of the border did so legally. And they obeyed our laws when they got here.

Today it has all changed into a free for all, that is bankrupting this nation. And none of it is going to be paid for by, "taxing the rich". Who as of last year, the top 1 percent of accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. Yeah, the "decades gone by" were pretty good years alright, because people provided for themselves. Then came liberalism. And look what happened.


No one is asking for the pie to be stolen... What is being asked for is a fair wage in comparison to living costs today for the same effort expended as it was back then like those of yester-year had it. Wages have been flat for the last 40 years and that is the problem all while the upper classes have accumulated so much wealth it's disgusting. AGAIN, they can have more than the rest but the bottom classes should be fairly compensated in comparison to living costs and that isn't happening today like it used to decades ago. PERIOD.


I do agree with your point to an extent. The wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers has grown over the last several decades...I don't remember the ratio, but it has grown A LOT! I believe the upper levels should make more than the worker bees, but not at the gap we have now...I am not advocating income redistribution though...if someone can figure out a way to do this and still operate within a capitalistic society he/she would become our next president...
 
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by billt460
In "decades gone by", people EARNED their "piece of the pie". They didn't expect the government to steal it for them from someone else. You didn't have people leeching off the government with every social program known to mankind. People pulled their own weight. The only people back then who received benefits from Social Security were the people who actually contributed and paid into those programs.

And there was no Medicare, Obama Care, Welfare, Food Stamps, and all the rest of the government dependent nonsense that started in 1965 with the, "Great Society". All of which have improved nothing, except to make people less dependent on themselves, and more on the government that is going bankrupt trying to pay for it all.

Kids worked their way through college, instead of taking out loans, only to default on them. All the while screaming how the government, "owes them" a free education, job, house, health care, along with everything else they think they deserve. That they base only on the fact they consume oxygen. Back then people paid their own way, and those who came here from south of the border did so legally. And they obeyed our laws when they got here.

Today it has all changed into a free for all, that is bankrupting this nation. And none of it is going to be paid for by, "taxing the rich". Who as of last year, the top 1 percent of accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. Yeah, the "decades gone by" were pretty good years alright, because people provided for themselves. Then came liberalism. And look what happened.


No one is asking for the pie to be stolen... What is being asked for is a fair wage in comparison to living costs today for the same effort expended as it was back then like those of yester-year had it. Wages have been flat for the last 40 years and that is the problem all while the upper classes have accumulated so much wealth it's disgusting. AGAIN, they can have more than the rest but the bottom classes should be fairly compensated in comparison to living costs and that isn't happening today like it used to decades ago. PERIOD.


I do agree with your point to an extent. The wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers has grown over the last several decades...I don't remember the ratio, but it has grown A LOT! I believe the upper levels should make more than the worker bees, but not at the gap we have now...I am not advocating income redistribution though...if someone can figure out a way to do this and still operate within a capitalistic society he/she would become our next president...


I do feel bad for some of the blue collar workers who are my tenants. When people go on and on about how hard the rich work, well I don't consider myself rich, but I basically sit on my butt and do nothing and the money comes in from rentals and investments. And it's way more than anyone making minimum wage. But I didn't work hard for it. What does it mean when reality doesn't jibe with dogma/philosophy?
 
Originally Posted by Wolf359
I do feel bad for some of the blue collar workers who are my tenants. When people go on and on about how hard the rich work, well I don't consider myself rich, but I basically sit on my butt and do nothing and the money comes in from rentals and investments. And it's way more than anyone making minimum wage. But I didn't work hard for it. What does it mean when reality doesn't jibe with dogma/philosophy?

It means easy street was handed to you on a silver platter? It does happen on occasion and there is nothing wrong with it.

However, based on many threads here, most successful BITOGers had the "uphill both ways, thru 3 feet of snow, shoeless" upbringing. These type of threads sure seems to bring out the chest beaters (those above age 25 that still have the need to tell everyone else how well they are doing and how the did it).....sorry for the curmudgeon remark, LOL.
[Linked Image]
 
"In "decades gone by", people EARNED their "piece of the pie". They didn't expect the government to steal it for them from someone else. You didn't have people leeching off the government with every social program known to mankind. People pulled their own weight. The only people back then who received benefits from Social Security were the people who actually contributed and paid into those programs.

And there was no Medicare, Obama Care, Welfare, Food Stamps, and all the rest of the government dependent nonsense that started in 1965 with the, "Great Society". All of which have improved nothing, except to make people less dependent on themselves, and more on the government that is going bankrupt trying to pay for it all."





Exactly. What we had back then was family. When someone in your family fell on hard times you helped them out.
 
Originally Posted by doitmyself
However, based on many threads here, most successful BITOGers had the "uphill both ways, thru 3 feet of snow, shoeless" upbringing. These type of threads sure seems to bring out the chest beaters (those above age 25 that still have the need to tell everyone else how well they are doing and how the did it).....sorry for the curmudgeon remark, LOL.
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And good for them and as well they should. I'll put myself in that camp and I also truly, truly enjoy hearing others' stories of self made success in the face of adversity. I find the stories inspirational. Beats hearing justifications of why some feel entitled to the hard earned assets of others, but nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Now I will get off my curmudgeon soapbox.
 
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Originally Posted by grampi


I do agree with your point to an extent. The wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers has grown over the last several decades...I don't remember the ratio, but it has grown A LOT! I believe the upper levels should make more than the worker bees, but not at the gap we have now...I am not advocating income redistribution though...if someone can figure out a way to do this and still operate within a capitalistic society he/she would become our next president...


We do or at least did. It is called unions. Unfortunately the wealthy and powerful found a way around them. It was outsourcing jobs.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by grampi


I do agree with your point to an extent. The wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers has grown over the last several decades...I don't remember the ratio, but it has grown A LOT! I believe the upper levels should make more than the worker bees, but not at the gap we have now...I am not advocating income redistribution though...if someone can figure out a way to do this and still operate within a capitalistic society he/she would become our next president...


We do or at least did. It is called unions. Unfortunately the wealthy and powerful found a way around them. It was outsourcing jobs.


Again, not that simple of a cause and effect...also plenty of greed and unreasonableness on both sides of that equation.
 
You start working the best you can and not wasting all your earnings save and invest and as the years go by hopefully there will be an improvement in your earnings and return in investments Life has no guarantees.
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by grampi


I do agree with your point to an extent. The wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers has grown over the last several decades...I don't remember the ratio, but it has grown A LOT! I believe the upper levels should make more than the worker bees, but not at the gap we have now...I am not advocating income redistribution though...if someone can figure out a way to do this and still operate within a capitalistic society he/she would become our next president...


We do or at least did. It is called unions. Unfortunately the wealthy and powerful found a way around them. It was outsourcing jobs.

Who voted in the politicians that allowed the off shoring of our jobs and who bought all the imported goods.
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
And good for them and as well they should. I'll put myself in that camp and I also truly, truly enjoy hearing others' stories of self made success in the face of adversity. I find the stories inspirational. Beats hearing justifications of why some feel entitled to the hard earned assets of others, but nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Now I will get off my curmudgeon soapbox.


tou·ché!
cheers3.gif
Yea, I'm in the camp too. Started working about age 11 and the rest is history.....enjoying the roller coaster.
 
Wolf..

You had to have worked for your investments and rental properties... Did some random stranger just stroll up to you one day and say hey... You want some free number2 like properties and investments??? I highly highly doubt it...

And you feel bad for those people.... Would consider dropping their cost by say 20-30 percent per month?? Which I bet would be substantial for them and you of course.. Would that be ok for you fiscally??
 
Originally Posted by bbhero
Wolf..

You had to have worked for your investments and rental properties... Did some random stranger just stroll up to you one day and say hey... You want some free number2 like properties and investments??? I highly highly doubt it...

And you feel bad for those people.... Would consider dropping their cost by say 20-30 percent per month?? Which I bet would be substantial for them and you of course.. Would that be ok for you fiscally??



Yes, I did initially work for it all, my parents were not rich, we never really went on vacations so I never got into the habit of going on a big vacation every year. Frankly when I do go on a vacation, it's so tiring that I'd just rather stay home or just go on a local trip than spend a ton on a vacation that tires me out. But now it's on cruise control and I don't really have to do much aside from sit on my butt and type of BITOG. S&P 500 is up 15% year to date plus rental income and it's way more than any minimum wage worker probably makes in a year. I didn't do anything to make the S&P 500 go up nor causes housing prices to increase or the rents to increase. If you look at historical data, they typically do. Did I really earn it? By some metrics I did, by others no.

I ride the wild gyrations of the market, it did probably drop by almost 20% at some point between the high and the low. It had no effect on what I did and did not cause me to cash out. I suppose you could say it affected my financial portfolio but did it affect what I did on a day to day basis? No.

Did I deserve a tax cut and did I do anything to earn it? No. If there's a tax increase, is there anything I can do to stop it? Probably not.
 
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