Illinois 15 dollar/hr incremental raise

ZZman · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by 02SE

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by Win

Originally Posted by ZZman

... Some people have no interest in being an owner or a boss. ...

Fair enough. Except that you seem unwilling to live with the choice. Earlier you posted words to the effect that business owners don't work for their money. You just don't know what you don't know. The ordinary guy next door lot - the type you deride, possibly envy, as "millionaires" - do. Be very careful what you wish for - you may get it. Many people stand ready to give it to you right now, and when they do, history teaches it will be good and hard. And you won't be better off when they do. You think we have an Elite class now, just wait until some are more equal than others, to paraphrase Orwell.

Who said I am unwillingto live with that choice? I am fortunate compared to many below me financially speaking. I don't believe I ever said owners don't work fir their money. I said investors don't. Thier money works not them. Owners work as do CEO's. But do they necessarily work harder than their workers? How much harder? 2, 3, 10 times harder ? How doesit relate to compensation.

Everyone that I know who invests, EARNED the money they have to invest. Investing is gambling, hopefully educated gambling, but still gambling. There are no guarantees. Never having started your own business, you have NO IDEA what it's like to take that risk, and struggle to make your business a success. As an employee, when you clock out, you relax and don't worry about work. If you're an owner, you never stop stressing over how to keep the business a viable concern. No employer could ever legally make me work as hard as I did when trying to make my business a success. I ate antacids like candy, got a duodenal ulcer, worked on little sleep, virtually no time off, but eventually that risk and hard work paid off. The employees I had? If the business failed they'd get unemployment and go find another job. I would've had to declare bankruptcy. I know you will never understand this, but there is no comparison in the risk, and stress involved for an employer and employee.

Yes I don't understand it as I never wanted to be my own boss. I am glad some do. Some are leaders and some are followers. I am not saying those that labor hard and take risks shouldn't be well compensated. How well compensated compared to workers is the issue. And yes a persons initial investment can be obtained thru earned income. But returns weren't "earned". There was no work involved by the investor. The money made money.

PimTac · Feb 25, 2019

"What is unconcern for the poor and sick called?" Trying out this version for the dark mode users. So if I have more money than you that means I am selfish and have no concerns for others? One thing about socialism, everyone will be financially equal. Equally poor that is.

StevieC · Feb 25, 2019

Thanks much better.

Wolf359 · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by ZZman

Yes I don't understand it as I never wanted to be my own boss. I am glad some do. Some are leaders and some are followers. I am not saying those that labor hard and take risks shouldn't be well compensated. How well compensated compared to workers is the issue. And yes a persons initial investment can be obtained thru earned income. But returns weren't "earned". There was no work involved by the investor. The money made money.

That's one of the powers of interest. The poor pay it, the rich earn money from interest. There's also the matter of people like Warren Buffet who pays less as a percentage of tax on income than his secretary. Bill Gates probably made more money since he left Microsoft than when he was with it as the stock has just continued to grow. Jeff Bezos is actually going to be losing half his money to his wife. I'm not sure that's going to tank his company and I'm not sure if his wife actually worked as hard as Jeff to deserve half the money. But that's how the laws are set up and he knew what he was in for when he married her. The main problem with most of the assertions in this thread is that you can't show that your assumptions are true. They're true in some cases, but not all. When that happens, the whole argument falls apart. That's really the basis of why most "proofs" fail, you can't show that your assumptions are true.

cjcride · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by wings&wheels

"But you bring up an interesting point. Everybody takes someone elses money. Businesses take customers money, the Government takes tax payers money. Workers take businesses money. Greed would be excessive. " Business voluntarily exchanges products/service for customer cash and employees exchange their labor for compensation, this is not a taking. Government collects taxes and fees, and do provide some services, but this is mandatory, more akin to a "take", and not directly comparable to private economic activity.

Agreed. I might add investors invest in companies that appear solid with potential for growth. I know a number of working class investors who work quite hard for the money they put into publicly traded companies.

Win · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by ZZman

....The money made money.

You've stated you have a pension. How is this any different? Both "money made ( making ) money" and a pension are merely a financial return on prior work effort. I don't have a pension. How is it fair that you have a pension and I don't? Can I have some of your pension? How much? Half? More? Less? Do you decide how much of your pension I get, or can I decide? Or do you want to keep your pension all to yourself? Maybe other people that don't have pensions will also want some of your pension. Pretty soon you might not have much of a pension.

wings&wheels · Feb 25, 2019

"And yes a persons initial investment can be obtained thru earned income. But returns weren't "earned". There was no work involved by the investor. The money made money. " Wrong...setting aside the efforts involved in acquiring their capital, the investors are providing their capital which is needed by business for investment in the business (for expansion, infrastructure, whatever), and are assuming an amount of risk which should be proportional to the potential return. The investors are most certainly 'earning' by providing this capital which provides business w/ the necessary resources to fund and expand their business. While this isn't shoveling, welding, consolidating books, designing, etc. it is a crucial economic activity. Time for a BITOG macroeconomics primer subforum?

Wolf359 · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by Win

Originally Posted by ZZman

....The money made money.

You've stated you have a pension. How is this any different? Both "money made ( making ) money" and a pension are merely a financial return on prior work effort. I don't have a pension. How is it fair that you have a pension and I don't? Can I have some of your pension? How much? Half? More? Less? Do you decide how much of your pension I get, or can I decide? Or do you want to keep your pension all to yourself? Maybe other people that don't have pensions will also want some of your pension. Pretty soon you might not have much of a pension.

I believe that's the whole point of this thread. Some try to say it's fair. Life isn't fair. Wealth accumulation isn't fair and neither is wealth redistribution. That shouldn't stop you from doing it if enough people believe in it. It's still a democracy.

02SE · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by Win

Originally Posted by ZZman

....The money made money.

You've stated you have a pension. How is this any different? Both "money made ( making ) money" and a pension are merely a financial return on prior work effort. I don't have a pension. How is it fair that you have a pension and I don't? Can I have some of your pension? How much? Half? More? Less? Do you decide how much of your pension I get, or can I decide? Or do you want to keep your pension all to yourself? Maybe other people that don't have pensions will also want some of your pension. Pretty soon you might not have much of a pension.

Great point. I've never had a pension and never will. That is simply unfair. How about giving me 35% of your pension, ZZman. It's only fair.

StevieC · Feb 25, 2019

Two questions... 1) Why can't it be a fairer system? (Not steal from the rich and give it ALL to the poor, but less of a divide between the uppers and lowers so it's not so extreme) 2) Don't you think a fairer system would encourage those that have said "eff it", to maybe try because it would be better than collecting assistance?

ZZman · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by cjcride

I might add investors invest in companies that appear solid with potential for growth. I know a number of working class investors who work quite hard for the money they put into publicly traded companies.

Not necessarily. You can bet against companies as well.

ZZman · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by StevieC

Two questions... 1) Why can't it be a fairer system? (Not steal from the rich and give it ALL to the poor, but less of a divide between the uppers and lowers so it's not so extreme) 2) Don't you think a fairer system would encourage those that have said "eff it", to maybe try because it would be better than collecting assistance?

absolutely about encouraging. Raising MW and offering childcare etc can help encourage. The goal to see people better off. The preferred method is working.

ZZman · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by 02SE

Originally Posted by Win

Originally Posted by ZZman

....The money made money.

You've stated you have a pension. How is this any different? Both "money made ( making ) money" and a pension are merely a financial return on prior work effort. I don't have a pension. How is it fair that you have a pension and I don't? Can I have some of your pension? How much? Half? More? Less? Do you decide how much of your pension I get, or can I decide? Or do you want to keep your pension all to yourself? Maybe other people that don't have pensions will also want some of your pension. Pretty soon you might not have much of a pension.

Great point. I've never had a pension and never will. That is simply unfair. How about giving me 35% of your pension, ZZman. It's only fair.

Well I paid in for at least half of my pension. It was part of my compensation. I also pay taxes on it. My pension is a middle income pension. It is hard enough to live on now much less it more was taken. Hence why I still work multiple part time jobs that total almost full time. About 1/2 people have a pension or some type of retirement vehicle. Now if I had a pension that was extremely good say over 100 k a year or so wouldn't I lose about 35% of it? That would still leave me with way more than I currently receive. Yes in my pension and 457 money made money by gains. But since my amount invested was avg my gains and total returns were avg. As they say. The more you have the more you make. And since we live in a progressive tax system I pay more than some and less than others.

pandus13 · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by wings&wheels

... Time for a BITOG macroeconomics primer subforum?

Seriously, Yes Please! (never stop learning!)

ZZman · Feb 25, 2019

The risk of going into a higher tax bracket never stopped me from working a lot of overtime. I never saw the possibly of having higher taxes being taken as a punishment because I was still making more money than I had. But then again like most Americans even working a lot of overtime wasn't going to jump me into a large bracket anyway.

ZZman · Feb 25, 2019

This discussion is fun. I am glad it has lasted so long....

02SE · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by pandus13

Originally Posted by wings&wheels

... Time for a BITOG macroeconomics primer subforum?

Seriously, Yes Please! (never stop learning!)

It's apparently sorely needed.

Skippy722 · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by Win

Originally Posted by ZZman

I think more in terms of common good/Quality of life. Others think in terms of individual/family good.

I fail to understand this. When you want to take someone else's money, and transfer it to you, this is for your individual good, not the common good. This is akin to rich folks being greedy for wanting to hang on to their own money, but it's not being greedy to ask that it be taken from them and given to you.

I didn't ask for a tax cut. In fact I would pay more in taxes if needed without complaint. As I have said I am thinking of the working poor and the middle class that is being eroded. I am past my earning years and semi retired now. Not all are greedy. Some are. When the poor and middle class is hurt by increasing income/wealth inequality there is a problem. But you bring up an interesting point. Everybody takes someone elses money. Businesses take customers money, the Government takes tax payers money. Workers take businesses money. Greed would be excessive. Is it greed to want to have millions or billions more that you don't need and could never spend, or greed to want health insurance or be able to make your housing payment and put food on the table?

You are the only one who'd be willing to pay MORE in taxes. I'd pay a big fat $0 if I could. But I can't... I'd rather see more money go to my local and state again the fed though, which finally happened this year for state. Companies aren't "taking" any money, employees aren't "taking" money from their employers, unless they're stealing, etc. If I don't like a certain product, in my case I will never buy a Toyota or GM vehicle, I simply won't give them my money. For them to "take" my money they'd have to put a gun to my head, a pen on my hand, and say "sign here or we shoot. You will take this car home today." Same with employees and employers... I don't have to work, I agree to work for $XX an hour+benefits. If I don't like it, I'm free to leave at any time. Our customers are also free to choose a different company to buy stuff from.

Wolf359 · Feb 25, 2019

Originally Posted by Skippy722

You are the only one who'd be willing to pay MORE in taxes. I'd pay a big fat $0 if I could. But I can't... I'd rather see more money go to my local and state again the fed though, which finally happened this year for state. Companies aren't "taking" any money, employees aren't "taking" money from their employers, unless they're stealing, etc. If I don't like a certain product, in my case I will never buy a Toyota or GM vehicle, I simply won't give them my money. For them to "take" my money they'd have to put a gun to my head, a pen on my hand, and say "sign here or we shoot. You will take this car home today." Same with employees and employers... I don't have to work, I agree to work for $XX an hour+benefits. If I don't like it, I'm free to leave at any time. Our customers are also free to choose a different company to buy stuff from.

On a different point, what if the question is whether you're willing to pay an extra $10 so someone doesn't stab you? Or rob you? I hate getting robbed and the worse part afterwards is that you know they only got $10-$20 for whatever they stole, but it costs you several hundred to fix the damage when the break into your car/house.