ZDDP Questions?

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Okay, I have been reading up on this for several weeks and I am still a bit confused. So it can damage your catalytic converter... What is the damage? More polluntants exiting the vehicle? Vehicle not passing emissions? Decreased performance. Are these just potential problems than can arise or is there proof? Has anyone experianced actual problems when using higher levels of a ZDDP additive? For instance, 1 bottle of SLOB added at every oil change... What is going to happen after several years? I know several people that pass emissions with a hollowed out cat... So what is the real deal. I found this srticle the other day and it's kind of interesting... "Subject: Crisis in America Author: Louis LaPointe Date: May 21, 2002 The fuel crisis in America: The fuel crisis started long ago, after World War II, when the major oil companies decided that the best course of action to maximize profits was to suppress certain technical information. The data concealed was about economy and how to get better mileage. Instead they promoted and glorified the horsepower race with high octane gas and by sponsoring racing events. They backed innovations that reduced mileage in cars and trucks. Thus they encouraged the wanton waste of precious fuel. Now with rising fuel costs going sky-high, those on fixed incomes are becoming desperate and in urgent need of remedy. 1: Three known collaborator groups appear to be the American auto makers, the American oil companies (Big Oil) and numerous officials in the Congress of the United States. There has been severe misrepresentation by lobbyists with deliberate distortion of technical facts for things to have come this far. Laws are being tweaked strictly in favor of the wealthy. 2: The regulators receive major funding from Big Oil. They also draw income from selling licenses to oil companies, large and small. Thus when Big Oil wants certain specs enacted, their wishes are usually granted. So under the guise of being kinder to catalytic converters and reducing emissions, new (but potentially harmful) specs have been introduced for lubricating oil and gasoline. Cars, trucks, motorcycles, boats and some aircraft are affected. 3: The catalytic converter hastens the completion of intermediate products of combustion in the exhaust into acceptable molecules such as carbon dioxide and water. These two are the ideal final combustion products from air and gasoline. NOx and unburned hydrocarbons are the bad guys. The best (common sense) way to reduce the total work from any catalytic converter IS with increased mileage. Look at this. Say a car goes 100 miles on 10 gallons of gas for 10 MPG. The catalytic converter then must process the emissions from 10 gallons. Say the car now goes 100 miles on five gallons for 20 MPG. The converter now processes the exhaust from only five gallons. Say the car gets 30 MPG. The converter would process emissions from a mere 3.33 gallons. It becomes perfectly clear that cutting MPG makes any converter work harder. The work of any converter is inversely proportional to mileage. You want the converter should last longer--bump up the MPG. Simple. Somebody tell me the guys in Detroit don't know this. 4: The standard ingredients in engine oil to make it capable of protecting engine parts are based on zinc and phosphorous compounds or ZDDP. These additives and a few others make an oil into a so-called detergent oil. With any reduction in these classic additives, oil is closer to being a so-called non-detergent oil that in a nutshell does not protect engine parts as well as detergent oil. These are simplified statements but technically valid. Now the groups mentioned above intend to cut the (already minimal) additive content of oil IN HALF. 5: These same groups also intend to TRIPLE the amount of alcohol in gasoline. Using alcohol in gasoline in states like Minnesota (where it is state law) means roughly ten-percent alcohol is in our gas. Now they plan to go to thirty-percent nation-wide. Ten-percent causes a drop in mileage in most cars of six MPG. The proof is that driving away from Minnesota into states without alcohol causes an instant rise in mileage of about six MPG. The loss of mileage is 15 to 22-percent according to accurate testing. And that is with ten-percent alcohol. I can only guess that 30-percent gasohol will lose roughly 40-percent in precious mileage. IOW the cost of driving your car will INCREASE by about 40-percent if they succeed. For other reasons we will discuss later, this 40-percent estimated loss in economy is a bare minimum. Even DIESEL FUEL is being infected with alcohol. The biggest factor in mileage is the quality of the fuel, not the quality of the cars. What good is it to drive a car that could deliver 50 MPG consistently, like mine, when the gasoline I buy is often limiting my car to only 25 MPG or less? 6: The cost of maintaining your car will soar to the moon if these changes (fiascoes) are introduced into law. In fact, there is no real damage being done by oil additives to catalytic converters within present limits. It is a blatant political claim rather than a sound scientific claim. It is true that anti-wear additives protect the ring seal in engines. Take away those critical anti-wear compounds and you create autos and trucks needing more frequent parts replacement. How very convenient for the American auto makers. In the end, the public will rebel just as they did with Prohibition. But that will take years and by then it will be too late. Fuel might cost 20 to 90 dollars per gallon if they are not stopped. 7: Your next new car or truck may last perhaps 50,000 miles before the rings are so worn that the engine passes lots of gasoline into the crankcase and lots of oil into the combustion process to pollute the catalytic converter and smoke up the environment. Combine that with a 30-percent alcohol-gas mix and impose an unrealistic limit on zinc and phosphorous content and we have doubled the real cost of driving an automobile to the store and to work. It will increase the cost of transportation for trucks and WE will all bear that expense in the form of economic inflation. The logic of these facts cannot be denied. Furthermore German car manufacturers have released their own oils in anticipation of the American pending regulations. The Japanese may follow. These foreign oils are quite high in additive content in defiance of the new regulations. The scenario is almost as if the American car makers are trying to regulate foreign cars away from the American marketplace unless the overseas companies cave in and comply. 8: They are also proposing a kind of sneaky device on your cars to tattle-tail if you use a good oil with a decent content of zinc and phosphorous. This tattle-tail system may even prevent your car from running if you use an engine oil with more additives than they allow. This translates into tons of new work for the mechanics and managers in the car dealerships--who you know do not work cheaply. Both the lower additive scheme and the increased alcohol scheme will lead to rapid engine wear, poor performance and high maintenance. Fortunately motorcycle oil is exempt from the harmful specifications. 9: The damage to the environment will be monumental and irreversible due to the dangerous heating already imposed on the atmosphere. There is a growing danger an ice age is the inevitable result of melting the Antarctic Ice Cap. The loss of the ice in the North will certainly further damage the deep sea currents that govern our global temperatures. Hundreds of huge mountain lakes in cold regions of the world are threatening to burst into adjacent valleys due to rapid glacial melting in recent years. IOW we need to greatly DECREASE our use of petroleum fuels--not the opposite just for the greed of those with political muscle. And its not only gasoline and diesel fuel we must consume less, home heating oil can benefit from certain additives that improve combustion. Plus we need to design brakes that do not heat the atmosphere. Whatever horsepower it takes to get a vehicle to 50 MPH, it also takes that same horsepower to bring the vehicle back to zero. IOW kinetic energy. 10: More cash flows to the Middle East than ever before because we will soon consume even more than the 20 million barrels of petroleum which is the present daily rate of consumption in the U.S. Would you believe burning 35 to 40 million barrels of petroleum a day by 2020? Our involvement with wars in the Middle East will most likely be magnified. So long as that part of the world is wall-to-wall dictatorships and tyrants who feel obliged to bring down our democracies, we will pay a huge price for petroleum in both cash and blood. And alcohol from corn is NOT the answer. Alcohol in fuel just makes matters worse. By the way, world wide production of petroleum will halt, starting in 2020 and ending around 2050. It will flat run out and nothing can be done about that looming fact. 11: The proper thing we should all agree upon is the urgent need to INCREASE gas mileage--not destroy it. We need to eliminate our dependency on Middle East oil--not increase it. We need to stop putting alcohol into gasoline--not increase it. We need to cease sending money to countries who seek to destroy our Nation. Furthermore two thirds of the alcohol intended for gasoline will be imported from Europe as Sour Wine remnants. This is wine not good enough for human consumption. But billions of $$$ will go to Europe. There are hundred of millions of bottles in France alone of old wine they cannot sell but they expect to export the stuff to America. I fail to see how our famers will benefit. What we need is better gasoline, not worse gasoline. The quality of gasoline varies so much that one cannot take a dependable trip and trust to get consistent mileage. Mine went from 25 to 52 on my last road trip, mostly due to alcohol content. 12: The U.S. population is generally the best fed and most entertained nation on Earth. With their noses glued to movie screens and TV sets, the average citizen cannot comprehend what is going on behind their backs--and all around them. They are in for a rude awakening. What will happen if you are not wealthy? Will you afford a new car every year? What will the costs be for those forced to drive gas guzzling, smoking vehicles? What will happen to truck owners who have to rebuild their engines every year? What will happen to our pocketbooks? Well, you can bet our lost cash will wind up with the car makers, corn farmers and the oil companies and their sheiks in far-off lands. 13: The environment and flooding of our planet will never recover from this latest pending assault on our economy and resources. The shame of this collaboration is they are doing it under the cover of protecting the environment. What a huge shameless lie! It is an indisputable fact that poor mileage pollutes more and creates faster engine wear. The reason they have quietly fought against propane as an automotive fuel is that propane causes practically no engine wear. Propane is so clean you can freely breathe the exhaust in warehouses. Plus the stuff is plentiful and cheap. I was once involved with a hydrogen fuel experiment that was doomed for one principal fact. Hydrogen burns 8 to 10 times faster than gasoline. It explodes. To stop detonation we recirculated so much exhaust back through the intake manifold that the car was a gutless wonder. And who wants to haul 2000 pounds of hydrogen tanks in the trunk? Plus the experimental hydrogen gas generator produced four times more poisonous gases than useable hydrogen. The generator was never installed in a car. 14: Let us all work together on mileage to get 40 to 60 MPG from our cars right away. Back when I evolved the technology to squeeze double the mileage from full size cars, gas was too cheap. If I can achieve this all by myself, the big boys can do it. The question is therefore, "Why won't they?" Why do they instead conjure up schemes to destroy gas mileage? Obviously you all know the answer but read my last few paragraphs for some very interesting facts. Furthermore, it is well known that lowering the additive content will damage piston ring life and that some blow-by will occur. Besides, since when does a smoking engine help lower emissions? 15: The public needs to be better informed about gasoline and mileage. Otherwise we are just pigeons or marks for the auto companies and Big Oil. My approach is to be honest and disclose my advances in mileage to the public. For instance, I have devices that add 10 to 20 MPG to a typical car. These are not exactly new but built upon ideas I developed over many years of trial and effort using scientific methods of testing. I have managed to get 52 MPG from my family sedan coming back from Cambridge, Ohio last year. Am hoping to reach 65 MPG this spring. 16: Our U.S. consumption of oil CAN be cut to ten or twelve million barrels per day. The technology exists today (but is ignored) to make this happen. Our pollution CAN be cut in half without destroying mileage. The key to both is greatly improved mileage to reduce emissions AND decrease domestic consumption. Am in the process of assembling a dyno facility to test fuels and mileage devices thus offering solid proof of what can be done. 17: In concluding, my simple but correct solution is that gasoline MILEAGE is the key to our national survival. We need a gauge on the dash to show MPG. It is a serious mistake to promote alcohol in gasoline--a step in the wrong direction. It is a mistake to promote low-detergent oils. Another wrong step. It is essential to raise gas mileage to double what it is today in the average car. AND this is not difficult. I can do it. I have done it. So have others whose lives were turned inside out. Now if you can do something for your country, help us get 40 to 60 MPG in the family car. Help our military vehicles get greatly extended range. Help us break from the Middle East. Do it. Please. Imagine what it would mean to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan if their vehicles could go 30 to 40-percent farther on the same fuel capacity. 18: My own intentions are purely to help our Nation. As a retired engineer, I found in all my research it was easier to get high mileage WITHOUT alcohol in the gas. With alcohol or water present, the task of obtaining good mileage became much harder. High mileage and oils with poor lubricity are also mutually exclusive. Because these conclusions are practically obvious, I wonder how the public has not been informed. But to see our politicians pander to the corn farmers is outrageous. Naturally WE would be forced to foot the bill because the vote hungry and desperate politicians are not going to spend their own money on their goofy plans. Concluding Explanation: There is a glaring contradiction in the proposed reduction of oil additives. Note they propose to reduce emissions with fewer additives in the OIL. Okay, how does OIL get into the exhaust? How does OIL get into the catalytic converter? This is the key question because OIL can only get into the converter by this path. Past the rings or valves. That's it. So how does any reduction in additives lower the amount of oil entering the combustion chamber and out the exhaust? IT CANNOT! In truth, any reduction in the already low existing levels of ZDDP will cause severe wear of the piston rings,walls and valve stems. Cams will experience extreme wear and may be the first to go in the face of reduced additives. Because of the severe slip-stick on the rings that stop twice per engine revolution, rings will lose their seal. The amount of oil entering the exhaust and into the catalytic converter will unquestionably INCREASE. When a sliding object comes to a complete stop, friction may increase as much as 15 times. Top center is where additives are essential to protect rings and valves. Their argument is false and they know this. Any automotive engineer knows the truth. But WHY are they pushing for a reduction of additives and an increase in alcohol? Well, the plain truth is that the U.S. can make more new cars than they can presently sell. That over production rate is 15 million more cars than the number sold each year. Because of their super efficient, robotic production lines, they want to destroy the worthiness of used cars by attacking the oil. They want to sell new cars that last barely a couple of years before becoming junk. They want the public buying those new cars off their superb production lines. They want to match their production overcapacity with a public demand for new vehicles created by the inability of auto and diesel engines to survive about 75,000 miles. Sound far-fetched? Not at all. After WW2, the auto companies were left with vast production facilities to manufacture millions of buses and trucks for the war effort. What did they do? They promoted government programs to bus kids to school. They killed mass transit by rail in most cities and replaced the clean, efficient electric trains with polluting buses everywhere they could and by any means possible. Today's school buses are still the same basic designs and tooling from 1945. Today's execs are unhappy if their production lines are not running at full capacity. So in the name of Greed, they simply create a greater demand for gas and cars by tampering with oils they consider to be too good and prevent anyone else from making anything better. They further encourage corrosion problems and poor running automobiles by adding alcohol to gasoline. WHY are they anxious to draw water from the atmosphere into the gasoline? That's what happens with gasohol. Plus it's no accident but a deliberate scheme. The reason is that the public takes new car problems to the dealership rather than to an independent garage. There the owner is fed a standard line designed to SELL more parts and services. The poor mileage translates into the oil companies SELLING more gasoline. Get it? The car makers can say it's the bad oil. The oil people can blame the new government rules. The government can point to the environmentalists. The environmentalists can say it's to stop global warming. The environmentalists are quite selective about what they condemn. For instance they say nothing about the enormous peat fires burning in the world. And so on. It's time for us to get scared."
 

sw99

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The reason I am wondering this is; I just bought a new vehicle and I have some concerns about using the SLOB in it. I honestly could care less in my older vehicles... I just don't want to use it if I will have to replace the emissions stuff in a couple years on a new vehicle.
 
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sw99- Check this out (it's posted by our authoritative Molakue) and it shall explains it all RE: ZDDP reduction and much more... http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1 Personally, I don't buy this Louis LaPointe's postings and such, citing many of his points (such as corporate conspiracy on Acetone as octane/mileage boosters with ScanGauge to proove it), has been debunked by creditable academic folks: http://neubranderinc.com/blog/2006/01/30/better-mileage-with-acetone-i-doubt-it/ Remember this: at this day and age, the internet is pretty much filled with a lot of half facts, anecdotal evidences and mostly lies. Caveat Emptor!
 

sw99

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Yea, I figured thhis Louis guy was a flake...It is interesting reading though, even if 1/4 were true. I also read the Molakule thread and I am still confused. I have not found anything that directly answers my questions. Or at least not in "plain english."
 
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Molakule's writing is fairly technical to begin with, so plse don't be upset if it doesn't ring your bell. That being said, however, in plain English: (1)ZDDP or at least the Phosphorous, is the major cause of ash and organic deposits in the piston ring area as well as catalytic convertors (if the engine consumes a bit of oil) (2)ZDDP maybe a good kind of AW/AO additives, the truth of the matter is that with the most recent API SL/SM grade of oil even with serious reduction in ZDDP contents, most oil manufacturers are able to come out with a "balanced" recipe with Boron and some other additives to compensate the lowered ZDDP (still a balanced mix of additives) (3)With a lot of independent research board, SAE and various lubricant boards to test and validate it, even with reduced ZDDP levels, current API SM grade motor shall still be able to provide sufficient lubricating and anti-wear properties which shall meet/exceed all current major car manufacturer's requirements for long service interval and consistent anti-wear properties. Bottomline: with Molakule and Terry's UOA and in-depth analysis(or peeping into many oil blender's secretive little sauce blend), any of the direct association between excessive engine wear and reduced ZDDP levels is pretty much thrown out of the board. Asides from user's uneasy feeling, we are gradually accumulating UOA data and raking up mileage using the most recent API SM grade motor oils.
 

sw99

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That is easier to understand, thanks! Can anyone answer my original question though? In reference to the catalytic converter, What is the damage? More polluntants exiting the vehicle? Vehicle not passing emissions? Decreased performance. Are these just potential problems than can arise or is there proof? Has anyone experianced actual problems when using higher levels of a ZDDP additive? For instance, 1 bottle of SLOB added at every oil change... What is going to happen after several years? I know several people that pass emissions with a hollowed out cat (I know, bad idea)... So what is the real deal?
 
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I believe ZDDP ends up lowering the effectiveness of your cat by reacting with the metals in it. So yes, more pollution going out. This is over a period of years and years though. For what it's worth, my 94 Metro burns a quart of oil every 500-600 miles. And this isn't even SM oil, it's SJ or SL, higher ZDDP than SM. Last spring I took it for emission testing, borderline pass for HC, but CO and NOx are great. I might not make it next time, but it still passes after years of pretty serious oil burning.
 
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There are published scientific studies with gas spiked with oil that show that phosphorus (but not zink) compounds do deposit in cat and gradually reduce it's effectiveness (cat poisoning). Againt, to demonstrate it you have to burn lots of oil. The only reson I use SLOB (sparingly) in my new cars is because timing chains and variable timing gears appear to be sensitive to ZDDP levels.
 
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