Illinois 15 dollar/hr incremental raise

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Part of the issue is the US is kind of the "worlds police." Denmark's military budget was $3.8 billion USD in 2017. While the US is out protecting the world, other countries are spending money they'd otherwise have to put into their own militaries on other things.

Good point

 

[ZZman]

Hey Billt460, how about we have the U.S meet somewhere in the middle of my utopia and yours.....

 

[02SE]

Preach it Bill! I'm reminded of my Brother in law, his dad was from Denmark, his mom from Norway. Two quasi-Socialist utopias, right. Without typing endlessly, suffice to say they both eagerly left their homelands, to have a chance at freedom and a better life in the USA. They had to work really hard, but they achieved it. As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by 02SE

As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.

A flat tax would only be fair as if everybody made the same amount. A person making $30,000 paying a 10% tax makes it a lot harder to live on the remainder than someone making a million dollars paying 10% tax. The simple fact is the more money you make the more money you have to live on regardless of the tax that you pay in a progressive system. You want to increase wealth inequalty even worse?

 

[ZZman]

I think more in terms of common good/Quality of life. Others think in terms of individual/family good.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by 02SE

As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.

A flat tax would only be fair as if everybody made the same amount. A person making $30,000 paying a 10% tax makes a lot harder to live on than someone making a million dollars paying 10% tax. The simple fact is the more money you make the more money you have to live on regardless of the tax that you pay in a progressive system.

Nope. Everybody paying the same tax rate is as fair as it gets. What we have now is a progressively punitive tax rate. Although I did get a tax break this year, Thank You President Trump, I'm still paying far too high a percentage rate. When I was working for minimum wage, I was determined to not stay at that pay rate. So I did what millions of others do, I learned new skills and furthered my education, so that eventually I would be able to earn more money.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by 02SE

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by 02SE

As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.

A flat tax would only be fair as if everybody made the same amount. A person making $30,000 paying a 10% tax makes a lot harder to live on than someone making a million dollars paying 10% tax. The simple fact is the more money you make the more money you have to live on regardless of the tax that you pay in a progressive system.

Nope. Everybody paying the same tax rate is as fair as it gets. What we have now is a progressively punitive tax rate. Although I did get a tax break this year, Thank You President Trump, I'm still paying far too high a percentage rate. When I was working for minimum wage, I was determined to not stay at that pay rate. So I did what millions of others do, I learned new skills and furthered my education, so that eventually I would be able to earn more money.

How is it punitive? Don't you still have far more wealth and income than most people after paying your taxes? Did paying a higher tax rate stop you from wanting to be successful or start your own company? I bet the answer is no. If progressive taxes are punitive than low wages are punitive.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by 02SE

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by 02SE

As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.

A flat tax would only be fair as if everybody made the same amount. A person making $30,000 paying a 10% tax makes a lot harder to live on than someone making a million dollars paying 10% tax. The simple fact is the more money you make the more money you have to live on regardless of the tax that you pay in a progressive system.

Nope. Everybody paying the same tax rate is as fair as it gets. What we have now is a progressively punitive tax rate. Although I did get a tax break this year, Thank You President Trump, I'm still paying far too high a percentage rate. When I was working for minimum wage, I was determined to not stay at that pay rate. So I did what millions of others do, I learned new skills and furthered my education, so that eventually I would be able to earn more money.

How is it punitive? Don't you still have far more wealth and income than most people after paying your taxes? Did paying a higher tax rate stop you from wanting to be successful or start your own company? I bet the answer is no. If progressive taxes are punitive than low wages are punitive.

That's a pretty profound post. Spot on.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by ZZman

I can't believe the greatest country on Earth (or so we are told) couldn't do what others have done. And we already have "social or socialist " programs in this country people like. SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Law Enforcement, Fire Protection etc....

And ALL of those programs are in serious financial jeopardy as we speak. Because we no longer have a sufficient tax base to support them. And you want more and bigger. I have just explained to you why what you are talking about is completely unaffordable for this country. The fact you do not want to either believe it or accept it doesn't change the fact it cannot and will not happen. Everything else is nothing more than wishful thinking. We're back to you eyeballing the neighbor's Porsche.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted by billt460

And ALL of those programs are in serious financial jeopardy as we speak. Because we no longer have a sufficient tax base to support them. And you want more and bigger. I have just explained to you why what you are talking about is completely unaffordable for this country. The fact you do not want to either believe it or accept it doesn't change the fact it cannot and will not happen. Everything else is nothing more than wishful thinking. We're back to you eyeballing the neighbor's Porsche.

We have a sufficient tax base to support them, but the Porsche drivers are siphoning gas from their neighbor's Civic.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by 02SE

Originally Posted by ZZman

Originally Posted by 02SE

As for taxes, a truly 'fair' tax would be a flat tax. Of course that would mean that lots of people would finally have to contribute, and the evil people that worked really hard and succeeded, would get a massive tax break.

A flat tax would only be fair as if everybody made the same amount. A person making $30,000 paying a 10% tax makes a lot harder to live on than someone making a million dollars paying 10% tax. The simple fact is the more money you make the more money you have to live on regardless of the tax that you pay in a progressive system.

Nope. Everybody paying the same tax rate is as fair as it gets. What we have now is a progressively punitive tax rate. Although I did get a tax break this year, Thank You President Trump, I'm still paying far too high a percentage rate. When I was working for minimum wage, I was determined to not stay at that pay rate. So I did what millions of others do, I learned new skills and furthered my education, so that eventually I would be able to earn more money.

How is it punitive? Don't you still have far more wealth and income than most people after paying your taxes? Did paying a higher tax rate stop you from wanting to be successful or start your own company? I bet the answer is no. If progressive taxes are punitive than low wages are punitive.

If I'm paying a higher tax rate than you, that's punitive to me. I know it doesn't bother you, because it isn't your money you earned being taken. If I told you today that your tax rate was going up over 20 percent, would it bother you? I know it would, regardless of what you might say here. If you or anyone making low wages considers them punitive, then as always I suggest you do something about it. Ie: Make yourself more attractive to an employer by increasing your knowledge and/or skills. Or take the really difficult path and start your own business. If I can, so can anyone else. What really bugs me is that most people I see complaining about how hard life is, continually make bad choices (particularly financial choices) that keeps them right where they are. The concept of sacrificing now, so you might have a more comfortable and secure life later, seems to be lost on them.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by billt460

And ALL of those programs are in serious financial jeopardy as we speak. Because we no longer have a sufficient tax base to support them. And you want more and bigger. I have just explained to you why what you are talking about is completely unaffordable for this country. The fact you do not want to either believe it or accept it doesn't change the fact it cannot and will not happen. Everything else is nothing more than wishful thinking. We're back to you eyeballing the neighbor's Porsche.

They are in trouble because politicians keep kicking the can down the road. There are 3 choices. Raise revenue, make cuts. Or do a combo. SS needs tweaking. Medicare tax hasn't been raised in decades and is too low. We have more people living longer, taking more drugs and having more surgeries etc. Eyeballing the neighbors Porsche? Harley maybe, house in the Caribbean maybe. But not a Porsche! Is Eyeballing the neighbors Porsche similar to ignoring the plight of the less fortunate or different?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by dishdude

We have a sufficient tax base to support them, but the Porsche drivers are siphoning gas from their neighbor's Civic.

That is absolute B.S. Stop talking stupidly. As it stands now we don't even have enough of a tax base to balance our current budget. Let alone balance it and pay off the $22 TRILLION DOLLARS we already owe. And if we made the necessary spending cuts to do it, we would have far less than we already do. And if that were to happen, (and it should), people like you would be screaming the loudest. You cannot purchase what you cannot afford. Regardless if you are an individual, a corporation, or a nation. And a nation cannot create wealth with a printing press.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by dishdude

Originally Posted by billt460

And ALL of those programs are in serious financial jeopardy as we speak. Because we no longer have a sufficient tax base to support them. And you want more and bigger. I have just explained to you why what you are talking about is completely unaffordable for this country. The fact you do not want to either believe it or accept it doesn't change the fact it cannot and will not happen. Everything else is nothing more than wishful thinking. We're back to you eyeballing the neighbor's Porsche.

We have a sufficient tax base to support them, but the Porsche drivers are siphoning gas from their neighbor's Civic.

Are you siphoning gas out of your neighbors Civic, to feed your Challenger?

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by billt460

That is absolute B.S. Stop talking stupidly. As it stands now we don't even have enough of a tax base to balance our current budget. Let alone balance it and pay off the $22 TRILLION DOLLARS we already owe. And if we made the necessary spending cuts to do it, we would have far less than we already do.

I am curious where you would make cuts. I hope the military would be on the list.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by ZZman

I am curious where you would make cuts. I hope the military would be on the list.

You would. Give up the ability to defend yourself as a nation, in favor of something you cannot afford even if you did. You are displaying behavior that is typical for a socialist. They refuse to see the economic facts that are starring them directly in the face. Because they are blinded by an unobtainable ideology that will never exist.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by billt460

Originally Posted by ZZman

I am curious where you would make cuts. I hope the military would be on the list.

You would. Give up the ability to defend yourself as a nation, in favor of something you cannot afford even if you did. You are displaying behavior that is typical for a socialist. They refuse to see the economic facts that are starring them directly in the face. Because they are blinded by an unobtainable ideology that will never exist.

Seems a capitalism system helped get us into this financial mess too. As did wars and other things. No seriously, where would you make cuts to reduce the deficit. Would you raise revenue at all?

 

[02SE]

Well, I'm off to bed. Providing a service for which I'm very well compensated (because I made the considerable effort to make my services desirable to a client), means I need to be well rested and ready to go, even if it's another day of weather delays out at Wild Horse Pass Raceway. I'd invite Bill and Dishdude out to the races, but I'd hate to see an argument erupt in the pits.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by billt460

Originally Posted by ZZman

I am curious where you would make cuts. I hope the military would be on the list.

You would. Give up the ability to defend yourself as a nation, in favor of something you cannot afford even if you did. You are displaying behavior that is typical for a socialist. They refuse to see the economic facts that are starring them directly in the face. Because they are blinded by an unobtainable ideology that will never exist.

Seems a capitalism system helped get us into this financial mess too. As did wars and other things.

Originally Posted by 02SE

If I'm paying a higher tax rate than you, that's punitive to me. I know it doesn't bother you, because it isn't your money you earned being taken. If I told you today that your tax rate was going up over 20 percent, would it bother you? I know it would, regardless of what you might say here. If you or anyone making low wages considers them punitive, then as always I suggest you do something about it. Ie: Make yourself more attractive to an employer by increasing your knowledge and/or skills. Or take the really difficult path and start your own business. If I can, so can anyone else. What really bugs me is that most people I see complaining about how hard life is, continually make bad choices (particularly financial choices) that keeps them right where they are. The concept of sacrificing now, so you might have a more comfortable and secure life later, seems to be lost on them.

20% yeah that would be a hard thing to swallow. But then as I said at my current income that leaves a avg middle class guy like me with even less to try and live on. By avg I mean way less than 6 figures. Frankly I never worried about tax brackets and taxes. Maybe because I never made a lot. And no, just because you can fo something doesn't mean everyone can. Some people have no interest in being an owner or a boss. They have no financial support to start a business or any other number of reasons. Maybe they did try and were financially ruined as many small businesses fail. You never said if the taxes are so punitive you are poor or have less than most Americans. I am pretty sure you are doing just fine. And that is great. I am sorry but I don't see taxes as a punishment. They are an obligation to country and the common good.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by 02SE

Well, I'm off to bed. Providing a service for which I'm very well compensated (because I made the considerable effort to make my services desirable to a client), means I need to be well rested and ready to go, even if it's another day of weather delays out at Wild Horse Pass Raceway. I'd invite Bill and Dishdude out to the races, but I'd hate to see an argument erupt in the pits.

Lol....have a restful night.