If I change my filter every other oci...

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Filters may catch things


That's their intended function

Quote:
but they are not removed from oil, merely held and are still in physical/chemical contact with the oil flowing thru/by them, and avaiable to size up and alter other particles to a problem size/chemistry.

Do you have unique insight into time/mileage usage restraints on this progressive process? Knowledge that trumps oil formulators, engine designers, and filter manufacturers?



Quote:
The only way to clean the engine is to remove these things and that means oil changing, filtering is not good enough, and with oil soluable things best not to leave them in to long.


So, I imagine that ..let's say.. something like an over the road trucker ..that spec's 25k OCI's ..should abandon his filtration and just put on hollow cans and change the oil out at ..let's see ..3, 4, 5X the specified oil change interval?

..or anyone ..any car..and change their oil at "what" interval?? What mileage should I change my oil at? Can I throw on a hollow can? 3k, 2k, 4k, 12k? UOA directed?

btw-I'd say "to maintain engine cleanliness". Oil basically keeps stuff from forming deposits. It's not so good at removing them once formed.



Yes, I'm being ridiculous

 

[jldcol]

Let me see if I understand this, unless I am a real expert, with some real qualifications, then I really know nothing and should be regarded as such, right? Plenty of people on this board dismiss what experts say fairly regularly, either directly or less so. Perhaps some here are experts, and self identify as such, and others are lay experts, define your term here. As a self identified lay speculator how does a media filter remove something soluable in the oil? How are things stuck in/on the media, and covered in the engine's oil not in contact with it?
If the OTR OCI is 25k and with all that filtration, they are trying to go more than that right? If they abandon that, then certainly can't go 3,4,5 times as long, you would be back at 25k, and you understand my position I am in favor of changing oil not leaving it in forever.Your responces to my posts may seem to some to be from expertise, to me they are from knowledge, curiousity, and interest. I share at least 2 of those, pick as you will. I believe this is or was a opinion forum, and not a expert one where we can send each other massive e-mails full of esoteric academic minutia. Do you know enough of these subjects to question my remarks, especially in the way you seem to? Maybe more than a mere lay expert, perhaps a real one, and I at least may be in the wrong place. I am being ridiculous as well, hopefully at least a little less so anyway.

 

[Gary Allan]

You failed to qualify anything you said ..

You simply said that you don't believe that filtration is necessary beyond break in ..and that removal of the oil is the only way to clean an engine.

Based on JUST those two assertions ..what can one conclude?

No filtration is necessary beyond break-in ..and you need to change the oil, right?

What frequency? Every day ..every week ..a month ..3 months ..6 montyhs? Just what is YOUR criteria ..since you're pulling your filtration theory out of your behind ..for changing the oil?

Is it the OEM recommendation? If so, and you have faith in that standard, why would you discount the filter recommendation and create your own mythos about IT?

No ..all fun in flaming aside, I need you to put some reasoning in setting some foundation for your belief. You also need to index and qualify your statements.

Right now you appear to subscribe to a filtration model that's used only in machinery without a combustion component to it. Hydraulics ..etc.

 

[jldcol]

The changing of oil is only to clean a engine should have read the only way to clean oil system is to change oil, to me fresh/less aged stuff is simply better than years old filtered stuff, especially at the cheapness involved in a auto oil change. Next for the interval after break in until the start of actual wearing out of the engine, there is to me essentially no need for filtration, wear is low/immeasureable and engine is tight enough not to grossly soil the oil, after this point filtration is/could be of use to slow the death of a now dying engine. I will continue to change my oil every few months, and not bother to change filter for 3-5 yrs. it is getting difficult to do anymore anyway. Even if I was qualified, energetic enough, and otherwise able to do as you you ask, this is hardly the forum let alone the thread to do so in. I do hope you are sufficently laughed out, as I am no longer willing to play straight man here anyway, if that is what I was doing. In future I will initially confine responce to the OP/question asked, and how it was asked, later if up to it I can/will reask OP if that is waht was asked, or if a slight, slight tweak will help them/me in any other back and forth. Unqualifiedly yours,...

 

[Gary Allan]

I beg your pardon?

Relax jldcol

You've come out swinging with some pretty radical assertions and stated them in a "matter of fact" way. You can't expect to just put them out there for peer review and then just not substantiate them with some level of sound reasoning behind them.

This is a basic rule of theory formation. It needs to pass peer review. While few of us are true "experts" in a bona fide way ..we're experienced explorers and base our conclusions on observations in discovery ..so to speak. My guesses/opinions are based on observations and reasoned from that experience.

You've stated an opinion ..but have not qualified it as such.

 

[jldcol]

I should not respond futher, but I wrote a belief that this a OPINION forum and not a expert one, and as such any thing on here is an OPINION, not truth,testimony, or anything else. Look for it, and see it, I can, above the first cackling beach ball. Once again a certain expertise is insinuated, but not fully claimed. That is not me by the way as I am a self identified unqualified poster. There are several definitions of that word, I wonder which one is being used and by whom? Squeak, squeak, this little chew toy is now out of air.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You've come out swinging with some pretty radical assertions and stated them in a "matter of fact" way.


That's why I tend to not read his posts. That, and it's actually difficult to do.

 

[jldcol]

At the risk of another difficult read chevrofreak, what is the specific difficulty? I can shout on here in all CAPS, but how would one shout on a soap box? and while wearing a tin foil hat? People radically assert things against petrochemists, engineers, physcists, etal... here really often. I an sorry that I am not the gentleman, scholar and mathematician that you are, at least in your posts. I may state things in dispassionate way, tis this wrong? Posting are of a common sort, in my OPINION, here on this site, typically someone has allready made up their mind about subject/thing x and really just wants the at-a-boy's, +1's, and the like and not really any info, but that's not what the site is about, tis all OPINION. Now when the OP does not get that, or responders to responces, as I am doing now, get it on , now just theatre, and of various quality, ny OPINION. This thing here works with specific questions and specific answers best, all else is way down efficency and quality wise, my OPINION. Should I bend knee to those thinking deserved of such, that is a bit much and out of custom/style, and out-rageous. That is your OPINION MR/MS. Chevrofreak, is it a expert, qualified(my new fav word) one? Please shine a light onto a dark soul, hopefully some will reflect elsewhere.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Huh?

Dude.. Learn about;

1. Sentences

2. Paragraphs

They are your friends.

I really can not follow what the heck your are trying to post...

I'm not trying to be smart jerk. just trying to help.

 

[jldcol]

Thanks Bill, but that was a paragraph at least to me. This is not a treatise or paper, so a conversational style of response seems ok. So I should be briefer, less clear or maybe more clear? Sorry but the sentences and paragraphs on here are less than friendly, from time to time. If you really can't follow what I write, at least how I write it perhaps that is best, as I intend to reform my responces anyway, if I still will bother.

 

[peterdaniel]

1) I have a headache

2) My Honda Element is pain to change to filter ( 2.4L ) and I have top actually go through the wheel well to get to it and still it is done blindly.

3) My Nissan truck ( 1997 2.4L 4x4) is to the inexperienced a royal BEYOTCH to change the filter... you need to remove the battery and do it while the engine is cool so you don't burn your forearm against the coolant hoses. Then you PRAY ( if its the first time) that the previous owner didn't put it on like a gorilla. The 2WD trucks are easier as you can get to them from underneath with a good stretch.

4) Filters are important to a point. But the law of physics states that fluid follows the path of least resistance so the larger holes would fill up to the same size as the smaller holes and then its all up for grabs which ones fill up next.

5) Not changing the filter each time you change the oil, is probably OK. Look at all the people who rarely change their oil, but they are always adding new oil ( My friends Nissan truck 2.4L is a perfect example) They don't have a oil failure because they are always replenishing the additives. Now imagine if you change out 4 of the 4.75 quarts of oil with fresh oil. Lots of new additives.


6) I believe that Honda, by stipulating not changing the filter each and every time is doing a couple of things. One, its cheaper for them to do a service and it makes the ownership costs appear to be less. Two) its better for the environment.


Honda has excellent engineering. While I always take what any manufacturer says with a grain of salt, I do not automatically reject it out of hand simply because I happen to disagree with it.

And a last comment about filters. FRAM has been making the orange can of doom for a long time now.. Yes they were made better years ago.. ( would be nice to find a really OLD new filter to compare FRAM of yesteryear with that of today's FRAM) but I have never ever seen any vehicle suffer as a matter of using them. They sell millions of them.. Surely if they were really bad filters, we would be hearing lots of horror stories. Honda uses them and paints them blue. yes it raises my eyebrows a bit when I found that out but again, who am I to argue against reality?


And finally, children are starving in this country. 50 people just died in horrific plane crash. Millions have lost their jobs.

( that should give you some perspective on the importance of an oil filter)

peter

 

[jldcol]

I believe laminar flow near media will get turbulant, and particles in it will flow along surface until a opening they can pass thru presents itself, which it will go thru. Opening needs to be larger than particles to do this, big particles clog little holse, little particles go thru big holes, thus little holes are blocked while big ones not, although they can/do get smaller. Sorry to hear about headache, but this is not the place to help that anyway. I did not mention FRAM, hope the venting reduced some pressure on headache. The other issues are true, tragic, and cannot-should not be addressed here. This tangent/diatribe/unraveling thread is closer to home. Appologies, above my OPINION.

 

[newtoncd8]

I change the oil filter on both of our daily drivers every other oil change. I run a 5K interval, drain the oil, and then at 10K, I change out the oil and filter. Repeat.

The used oil analysis I have had done seem to indicate things are going well with both cars.

I agree with the statements that filters are cheap, but from my experience, a 10K interval on a Mobil 1 Extended Performance or Mann filter is fine.

As usual, YMMV.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: peterdaniel
And a last comment about filters. FRAM has been making the orange can of doom for a long time now.. Yes they were made better years ago.. ( would be nice to find a really OLD new filter to compare FRAM of yesteryear with that of today's FRAM) but I have never ever seen any vehicle suffer as a matter of using them. They sell millions of them.. Surely if they were really bad filters, we would be hearing lots of horror stories. Honda uses them and paints them blue. yes it raises my eyebrows a bit when I found that out but again, who am I to argue against reality?


20+ year old Fram filter cut open

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: jldcol
I believe laminar flow near media will get turbulant, and particles in it will flow along surface until a opening they can pass thru presents itself, which it will go thru. Appologies, above my OPINION.


The laminar flow should be maintained until it needs to squeeze through an orifice. The shearing should cascade downward (deceasing in velocity as one penetrates deeper into the can). I would imagine that turbulence could be localized at/near the media and would transition back to laminar flow on the interior of the center well. The path of least resistance would still apply and larger pores would conduct greater flow.

This would be thrown out the window with something like a Spinflow.

 

[jldcol]

Larger pores conduct a greater flow of what? oil? little particles? Both yes, I agree. Now big particles at those same big holes, some get thru, some almost and lodge close enough in media to the hole to partially obscure it and size it down. These big things will block nearly any small or even medium hole they come upon. I can answer further at the risk of longer post, perhaps not worth it,eh?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I can answer further at the risk of longer post, perhaps not worth it,eh?


You're the only one that can answer that. Input from others appears of little importance.

We're not in disagreement in your above assertion ..but that's a slide from your original assertion.