I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage
- Thread starter AEHaas
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I love your leaps of logic.
A design change may be needed only to insure the proper flow and volume requirements are met, not because one "protects" better than the other. 5w20 and 5w30 recommendations in different geographical locations may just as well be done for marketing, distribution, availability, consumer awareness considerations, not because of some nefarious plan to boost fuel economy at the expense of "protection".
buster, Thin oil followers always want to compare black to white!!! You have to use simalar base stocks and additive packages to compare a 20Wt. to any other weight. If you have disimalar base stocks or additive packages then the whole comparison is invalid! Remember you try as much as possable to change just one variable at a time. So idealy you would compare say Redline 5W20 to 10W30 and 5W40 as they have simalar additive packages and base stocks! I belive Schaffers is also fairly simalar with thier base stocks and additives etc.... Compareing say Motorcraft Semi-Synthetic 5W20 to say Coastal 10W40 is just not a ballanced comparision at all!Motorcraft does not have a 5W30,10W30,15W40 in it's line up with a simalar additve and base stock package as it's 5W20!
This oil geek would rather have the choice to use any quality oil I deem ok for the ambient temp.'s and the application! I would rather have a great 5W20,5W30,10W30,10W40,5W40 synthetic with a great base stock and a great non-API non GF-4 oil with an HTHS 3.3 or higher! If I want a dino I can get a 10W30 or 15W40 that is CI-4+ rated and still have a good base stock with a grade additive package. If I want PCMO then you have a lot of good GII,GII+ and GIII+PAO oils under $2.59 and less a quart in 5W30,10W40,10W40 and 5W40!
On the iffy lube front I doubt many of them carry 5W20's as an industry standard just yet! So most people are not getting 5W20 in their Honda and Fords!My Walmart does not move a lot of 5W20! They carry it bit it sells really slow!!!
THe reason FOrd does not use 5W20 across the board yet has tto do with reclearanceing and or redesigning the oil pumps of some vechiles so that they will flow enough volume of 5W20. They also would like to redesign some of the bearings to improve how they perform with 5W20. Some designs were already ok with no modifications but some are not!
As for long term durability most companys are happy with most of their test fleet failing between 36,000-150,000 miles. By failing I am talking about oil consuption, power output, NVH etc..... I know that DC has set 150,000 miles as the stadard for engine validation. Know we also know that the engines that are know going over to 5W20 were origanaly valadated with 5W30 and 10W30 so lets hope DC revalidated with 5W20 (unlikely) but lets hope! I have a lot of respect for the newer DC engine designs and their 150,000 mile validation standard.
This oil geek would rather have the choice to use any quality oil I deem ok for the ambient temp.'s and the application! I would rather have a great 5W20,5W30,10W30,10W40,5W40 synthetic with a great base stock and a great non-API non GF-4 oil with an HTHS 3.3 or higher! If I want a dino I can get a 10W30 or 15W40 that is CI-4+ rated and still have a good base stock with a grade additive package. If I want PCMO then you have a lot of good GII,GII+ and GIII+PAO oils under $2.59 and less a quart in 5W30,10W40,10W40 and 5W40!
On the iffy lube front I doubt many of them carry 5W20's as an industry standard just yet! So most people are not getting 5W20 in their Honda and Fords!My Walmart does not move a lot of 5W20! They carry it bit it sells really slow!!!
THe reason FOrd does not use 5W20 across the board yet has tto do with reclearanceing and or redesigning the oil pumps of some vechiles so that they will flow enough volume of 5W20. They also would like to redesign some of the bearings to improve how they perform with 5W20. Some designs were already ok with no modifications but some are not!
As for long term durability most companys are happy with most of their test fleet failing between 36,000-150,000 miles. By failing I am talking about oil consuption, power output, NVH etc..... I know that DC has set 150,000 miles as the stadard for engine validation. Know we also know that the engines that are know going over to 5W20 were origanaly valadated with 5W30 and 10W30 so lets hope DC revalidated with 5W20 (unlikely) but lets hope! I have a lot of respect for the newer DC engine designs and their 150,000 mile validation standard.
Okay. I'm trying to figure out what is probably the "best" 5w20 oil on the market that is available in the U.S. I'm still undecided as to whether I'll use 5w20 in my '04 Honda, but if I do, I'll sleep easier knowing that I used the best oil I could in that weight.
For example, Redline has a HTHS rating of 3.3 and a VI of 145. Amsoil 5w20 has a HTHS rating of 2.9 and a VI of 183. Pennzoil Platinum has a HTHS of 2.6 and a VI of 160.
What numbers/ratings are the most important to consider? Of the three oils posted above, which looks "best".
For example, Redline has a HTHS rating of 3.3 and a VI of 145. Amsoil 5w20 has a HTHS rating of 2.9 and a VI of 183. Pennzoil Platinum has a HTHS of 2.6 and a VI of 160.
What numbers/ratings are the most important to consider? Of the three oils posted above, which looks "best".
You and I are in the same 5w-20 Boat. I have an 05 Accord. I have 11 quarts of RL 5w-20 and 6 quarts of M1 10w-30 EP and 0w-20 M1.
I'd say that really any 5w-20 will do. In some ways, I'm frustrated that I went out and bought the M1/RL because I noticed today that I can get a case of Motorcraft 5w-20/5w-30 Synthetic blend for $28. (12 quarts). Amsoil's specs havn't been updated and the HT/HS is now about 2.6.
I'm leaning towards Mobil 1 10w-30 in the summer, 5w-30 in the winter. I've seen 2 UOA's with Amsoil S2k in the Accord 2.4L and it did well so using a 30wt is perfectly fine and give you peace of mind if the thin oils bother you. M1 10w-30 EP has a HT/HS of 3.2 I think it's ideal for Honda's IMO. For racing I'd go with RL 5w-20.
Excellent discussion,
Although we all express opinions here, there are a few things that are for certain and cannot be debated.
1) The fact that certain engines like the Mazda MZR series are specified to run in Europe, Australia, and Asia with much thicker lubricants totally negates the concept that these engines were designed from the get-go to be run with 5W-20 lubricant. There is no logical explanation as to why they would design an engine for 5W-20 and then specify 15W-40 for Australia thus hurting fuel mileage,adding to exhaust emissions , and causing excess wear (since this oil is so far away from the optimzed design 5W-20 specification).
2) To quote someone else here, no oil is thin enough during a cold start and even the warmup period until one approaches 70% or 80% of opperating. Therefore, the 5 and 0W-20s provide an advantage in all engines during the startup- period and most of the warmup period, it's only at the higher sump temperature range where valid concerns and debates should begin. If you only driver 5 miles and live in canada, you can put htis stuff in any engine.
3)The people on this board spend way too much time thinking/talking about viscosity specifications or grades and not enough about practical operating viscosities which is the only thing here of practical importance. This is effectively controlled by ambient temperatures (for startup) and mostly from there by length of trip. In other words, taking item 2) into account above, you'd be very safe and better off using 0W-20 in an engine specifying 10W-40 if you only drove 5 mile trips in cold weather.
You would also be running a thinner lubricant (except when the lube gets very hot where you want it to be thicker)if you ran 5W-30 in the Phoenix summer than if you ran 0W-20 in Canada. So why are you thin oil buffs getting onto people here for running thicker grade oils when they actually may be running thinner oil than you are. I know, it's because of the old......."your engine was designed for this stuff year round". Do you jabronies in this class/group think that viscosity stopped changing with temperature when they invented the old 5W-20? Some here seem to act like it did. Is this a marijuana issue or something? This is why why traditionally owners manuals have provided recommended viscosity versus temperature charts. Some of the motors that jabronies here insist were designed aroung 5W-20 still have these charts in foreign country owners manuals for the same engines. Only in America have these charts seemed to have disappeared and this fact alone should make those here with brains quite suspicious indeed......... In fact, why doesn't somebody give a better explanation for this than CAFE........I'm all ears.
Anyway..............regardless of what engine or what lubricant you use, ambient conditions, length of trip, driving style, all factor heavily into the viscosity question and specifying only one viscosity for all the myriad conditions and ambient temperatures sounds a little scary to 1911. It should make you think a little harder too.
4)The clearance mumbo jumbo continually fabricated by non-engineers on this board is total BS. Regardless of the clerarance in a main bearing, you will not form an fully protective oil wedge unless the right combination of lubricant viscosity and rpm are met for a given radial load. You cannot cut the clearance down towards zero and run a 0.3 centistoke lubricant and expect an oil wedge to form. Who started this mythology? I know who will end it.
I'm out!!!
Although we all express opinions here, there are a few things that are for certain and cannot be debated.
1) The fact that certain engines like the Mazda MZR series are specified to run in Europe, Australia, and Asia with much thicker lubricants totally negates the concept that these engines were designed from the get-go to be run with 5W-20 lubricant. There is no logical explanation as to why they would design an engine for 5W-20 and then specify 15W-40 for Australia thus hurting fuel mileage,adding to exhaust emissions , and causing excess wear (since this oil is so far away from the optimzed design 5W-20 specification).
2) To quote someone else here, no oil is thin enough during a cold start and even the warmup period until one approaches 70% or 80% of opperating. Therefore, the 5 and 0W-20s provide an advantage in all engines during the startup- period and most of the warmup period, it's only at the higher sump temperature range where valid concerns and debates should begin. If you only driver 5 miles and live in canada, you can put htis stuff in any engine.
3)The people on this board spend way too much time thinking/talking about viscosity specifications or grades and not enough about practical operating viscosities which is the only thing here of practical importance. This is effectively controlled by ambient temperatures (for startup) and mostly from there by length of trip. In other words, taking item 2) into account above, you'd be very safe and better off using 0W-20 in an engine specifying 10W-40 if you only drove 5 mile trips in cold weather.
You would also be running a thinner lubricant (except when the lube gets very hot where you want it to be thicker)if you ran 5W-30 in the Phoenix summer than if you ran 0W-20 in Canada. So why are you thin oil buffs getting onto people here for running thicker grade oils when they actually may be running thinner oil than you are. I know, it's because of the old......."your engine was designed for this stuff year round". Do you jabronies in this class/group think that viscosity stopped changing with temperature when they invented the old 5W-20? Some here seem to act like it did. Is this a marijuana issue or something? This is why why traditionally owners manuals have provided recommended viscosity versus temperature charts. Some of the motors that jabronies here insist were designed aroung 5W-20 still have these charts in foreign country owners manuals for the same engines. Only in America have these charts seemed to have disappeared and this fact alone should make those here with brains quite suspicious indeed......... In fact, why doesn't somebody give a better explanation for this than CAFE........I'm all ears.
Anyway..............regardless of what engine or what lubricant you use, ambient conditions, length of trip, driving style, all factor heavily into the viscosity question and specifying only one viscosity for all the myriad conditions and ambient temperatures sounds a little scary to 1911. It should make you think a little harder too.
4)The clearance mumbo jumbo continually fabricated by non-engineers on this board is total BS. Regardless of the clerarance in a main bearing, you will not form an fully protective oil wedge unless the right combination of lubricant viscosity and rpm are met for a given radial load. You cannot cut the clearance down towards zero and run a 0.3 centistoke lubricant and expect an oil wedge to form. Who started this mythology? I know who will end it.
I'm out!!!
427Z06 said "I love your leaps of logic. A design change may be needed only to insure the proper flow and volume requirements are met, not because one "protects" better than the other...."
I guess a simple, logical statement looks like 'leaps' to a 5w20 cult. Stated more simply,
1. The Ford Explorer, most popular SUV in the US, runs fine on 5w30. One finds engine damage when trying to use 5w20. What is the problem ?
a. 5w20 doesn't offer as much protection as 5w30.
b. The Ford Explorer has a design problem.
2. Someone club racing an Audi has cam wear problems when using Mobil 1 5w30, solves problem with Delvac 1, but the wear gets much worse with 5w20. What is the problem ?
a. 5w20 doesn't offer as much protection as 5w30.
b. The Audi has a design problem.
3. Ford states that for fuel economy 5w20 will be used in many vehicles, but some very popular models are still required to use 5w30. A few years later some of the previously excluded models are shipped with 5w20, but outside of the US Ford recommends using 5w30. Why does Ford recommend 5w20 in the US and 5w30 outside of the US ?
a. Ford needs to minimize possible warranty problems where there is no CAFE pressure.
b. Shipping the vehicle outside of the US creates a design problem.
Basic troubleshooting in 1 and 2 above would find that there is no 'design problem', but I guess that is what it looks like to a 5w20 advocate who finds vehicles that have problems when using 5w20 but worked fine on heavier oils.
I guess a simple, logical statement looks like 'leaps' to a 5w20 cult. Stated more simply,
1. The Ford Explorer, most popular SUV in the US, runs fine on 5w30. One finds engine damage when trying to use 5w20. What is the problem ?
a. 5w20 doesn't offer as much protection as 5w30.
b. The Ford Explorer has a design problem.
2. Someone club racing an Audi has cam wear problems when using Mobil 1 5w30, solves problem with Delvac 1, but the wear gets much worse with 5w20. What is the problem ?
a. 5w20 doesn't offer as much protection as 5w30.
b. The Audi has a design problem.
3. Ford states that for fuel economy 5w20 will be used in many vehicles, but some very popular models are still required to use 5w30. A few years later some of the previously excluded models are shipped with 5w20, but outside of the US Ford recommends using 5w30. Why does Ford recommend 5w20 in the US and 5w30 outside of the US ?
a. Ford needs to minimize possible warranty problems where there is no CAFE pressure.
b. Shipping the vehicle outside of the US creates a design problem.
Basic troubleshooting in 1 and 2 above would find that there is no 'design problem', but I guess that is what it looks like to a 5w20 advocate who finds vehicles that have problems when using 5w20 but worked fine on heavier oils.
If you weren't aware, smoking crack is bad for your health.
Originally posted by 1sttruck:
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Basic troubleshooting in 1 and 2 above would find that there is no 'design problem', but I guess that is what it looks like to a 5w20 advocate who finds vehicles that have problems when using 5w20 but worked fine on heavier oils.
Very intresting..my 02 Mustang has seen nothing but 5-20 MC oil for 32K ...what do I do with all the 5-20 oil I bought from Walmart??? I guess I just have to start keeping my speedo under 100 mph...hard to do...LOL
There I fixed it for ya'.
This is one funny thread!!!
It's in that ford oil faq on page three of this thread.
Q. Why did Motorcraft® release SAE 5W-20 motor oil?
A. It was the right thing to do for the consumer and for the environment. It was one of Ford's first steps in working to improve the fuel economy of our SUVs by 25% by the 2005 calendar year. SAE 5W-20 improves fuel consumption by approximately 0.6 percent. For the 2001 fleet, this amounts to reducing fuel usage by more than 21 million gallons per year. This reduction in gasoline consumption leads to a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions by 190,000 metric tons per year, which is equivalent to taking nearly 23,100 cars and trucks off the road each year.
B. Ford Motor Company has a responsibility to make its vehicles more environmentally friendly plus this is a better oil. Also, the industry is converting from GF2 level products to GF3 and Motorcraft 5W-20 is leading the way for our product line up.
Do you really think Ford is just trying to be enviromently friendly? Do you think Ford is trying to stick it to OPEC?
Ford is trying to maximize profits by selling vehicles Americans want to buy and avoiding CAFE penalties. Whether they do that by engineering a better fuel injection system (very costly) or choosing a more advanced oil (lot less costly) is something their management already decided.
It also says this:
There also is a link (don't have it at my fingertips right now) to a letter EPA wrote to Ford approving use of 5w20 in their fleet fuel mileage tests for CAFE only if they have the 5w20 as factory fill, make it available at many places so the customer can get it, and state that the owner is to use 5w20 (no other options allowed). IIRC, it specifically stated they cannot say "5w20 preferred" and that appears to be why you don't get those nice charts in the owner's manual anymore showing 4 - 6 different oil grades and the temperature ranges for which they are recommended.
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