I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage

[buster]

I'm done with this argument. I think it's over and done with. Viscosity is just one aspect of an oil. Ford tested the 5w-20 rigorously in Arizona and it held up better then the 5w-30.

Q. Were engine designs modified to run this new grade of oil?
A. Some bearing designs were optimized to take advantage of the new oil. New engines will be designed to take advantage of 5W-20.


Q. Who makes Motorcraft oils & Lubricants and is it important?
A: Conoco manufactures our main high volume bulk and packaged products and many of our lower volume packaged products come from Excelda Manufacturing who has several 2nd tier suppliers. The supplier is not as important as the specification and the performance of the final product. What is important is that Motorcraft oil is blended to FCSD's specification, which exceeds the minimum industry specifications for ILSAC GF-3 (API SL) for gasoline engines; ILSAC CH-4 (API SJ) for our Diesel Oils and even exceeds the Ford specification. It is the only oil that can truly claim it is Designed, Engineered and Recommended by Ford Motor Company, for your Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury vehicle. No other motor oil or lubricant can make this claim.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by bulwnkl:

Very good!

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Thank you.

 

[JoggingGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:

quote:

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Originally posted by TallPaul:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
No oil is thin enough at cold startup.

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3-in-1 oil is.

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Love it!

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I wonder how many of those little bottles it would take to fill up my truck

And the looks I would get at Home Depot filling a basket full of them

 

[427Z06]

Yes Elfe Meister, very well done.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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I'm done with this argument. I think it's over and done with.

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Oh no, Buster......

....
you aren't getting off that easy!! I see you're back to your backdoor thin oil socialist agenda tricks again(envision poor lipsync Taiwan Kung Fu movie with animated facial responses, "So Chin-lee ...I see you defeated my assasins. Hmm ..I will not make the mistake of underestimating you again .)
But hey, I'll carry your banner ..but not your cause!!! No!! I'm going to run MC 5w-20 just to be a confounding contrarian ...scoffing at risk .. (Yoda voice= bearing mass loss ..ehh ..cylinder and ring wear ..ehh Truth seekers fear not these things!! WE ARE RECKLESS)

 

[buster]

quote:

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I see you're back to your backdoor thin oil socialist agenda tricks again

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No I think we just over generalize. You can make a good 20wt that works for certain cars/conditions. Then their are cars that need heavier oils.

 

[bbcmat]

Unless you guys are having a guaranteed higher trade in value with your thick-oil-for-protection engines, or are getting a higher $/lb at the scrap yard – what is the difference between putting a good engine out to pasture – and a great engine out to pasture?

If the 20wt oils keep running cost down (better fuel economy, endorsed extended drain intervals) without decreasing asset value to the customer – then it is to their advantage.

My choice is to continue to put worn out vehicles with great motors in the scrap yard – because I feel good when my “horse” is pampered. I don’t expect Joe/Janet Average to spend more cash to do the same thing.

IMO

MAT

 

[Ugly3]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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I see you're back to your backdoor thin oil socialist agenda tricks again

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No I think we just over generalize. You can make a good 20wt that works for certain cars/conditions. Then their are cars that need heavier oils.

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I don't think I have seen anyone say 20W oil should be used in all engines. What most "thin oil" people have said is that 20W oil could be used in most engines (with some logical reasons why) and there would be some MPG benefits to boot. There are some engines that require a thicker oil.

Many "thick oil" people feel that 20W oil should not be used in engines speced for 20W (with logic for that choice) and that any MPG benefit 20W oil may give is more than offset with excess wear.

I am an 80% "thin oil" user. I run Mobil 1 5w30, almost a 20W oil.

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh ...absolutely. It is usually a moot point to maintain an engine beyond a certain degree. We've often speculated that GM/Ford/DC/whomever design their maintenance schedules around some consumer mandate that sorta says "the consumer will realize no appreciable decrease in value or utility over the typical ownership ....." type thing.

That is, a 00 Caprice that was maintained @ 7500 OCIs with whatever spec'd available dino for 10 years will be (probably) be worth no less ..nor deliver any less utility over that time span.

I must counter that with ..if the same mentality were applied to performance, we would all be using Briggs & Straton 8 hp main drive engines since they can propell us from point A to point B and the added performance and capability of anything more won't enhance our ability to complete that one dimensional task.

quote:

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My choice is to continue to put worn out vehicles with great motors in the scrap yard – because I feel good when my “horse” is pampered. I don’t expect Joe/Janet Average to spend more cash to do the same thing.

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I'll go beyond that ...I'll try and never put one in the scrapyard.

 

[OMCWankel]

I do not believe there can be any single correct answer to this debate. Oil chemistry must be chosen to compliment the engine design, operating conditions, and actual useage.

Services like Terry provide exist for this very reason.

Here are examples from my own experience:

A high RPM (13,000) motorcycle engine that has straight cut gearing for cam actuation. Shearing action is so pronounced that VI improvers are gone at 500 mi. Solution is to use an oil with little to no VI improvers.

A small 4-cyl (1600cc) engine in a vehicle that has poor airflow cooling to both engine coolant and oil. Best solution is to inprove airflow (impractical). Acceptable solution is to use a high viscosity oil that will still have acceptable cST at high oil temperatures.

A modern rotary using oil for cooling the rotors internally. Best solution is to use high viscosity oil that will still have acceptable cST at evelated temperatures (as proven on previous generation rotary engines). Impractical due to mechanical oil injection pump, tied to RPM, having fixed orifaces, and calibrated to factory specified 5W-20 oil. Solution = ???????. To find a solution to this problem is why I joined BITOG.

 

[bulwnkl]

quote:

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Originally posted by OMCWankel:
A modern rotary using oil for cooling the rotors internally. Best solution is to use high viscosity oil that will still have acceptable cST at evelated temperatures (as proven on previous generation rotary engines). Impractical due to mechanical oil injection pump, tied to RPM, having fixed orifaces, and calibrated to factory specified 5W-20 oil. Solution = ???????.

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Proposed solution: Use RedLine 5W20. Better thermal stability than anything else available, higher HTHS viscosity than many/most xW30s, factory-specified 5W20 grade.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thorn:
What should I use that I can buy "over-the counter". The 5w20 supporters mention Redline as the only 5w20 with a strong HTHS rating, but I'm looking for something that is a little less costly and easier to get my hands on. Are there any other 5w20 alternatives with a strong HTHS?

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Looking at some actual viscosity and HTHS values:

code:

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Kinematic Viscosity in cSt

T(C) M1 0W30 * M1 5W30 * M1 10W30 * M1 0W20 * RL 5W20

-20° 1994.8 2225.1 3424.8 1712.7 2995.8

-10° 872.4 944.7 1332.9 730.8 1165.3

0° 428.3 452.9 595.7 352.8 521.4

10° 231.3 240.1 298.3 188.5 261.8

20° 135.3 138.3 164.1 109.5 144.5

30° 84.6 85.5 97.6 68.3 86.3

40° 56.0 56.0 62.0 45.1 55.0

50° 38.8 38.5 41.6 31.3 37.0

60° 28.1 27.7 29.2 22.6 26.1

70° 21.0 20.6 21.4 17.0 19.2

80° 16.2 15.8 16.1 13.1 14.5

90° 12.8 12.4 12.5 10.4 11.3

100° 10.3 10.0 10.0 8.4 9.1

cP @ 150°C

HTHS 3.0 3.1 3.2 2.6 3.3

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Looks like M1 0-5w30 is the best overall compromise in terms of viscosity, low temperature performance, price and availability if you believe you need a HTHS value above 2.6

[ April 22, 2005, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[Thorn]

Actually, about a month ago I bought 5 quarts of Amsoil S2k 0w30 because their website said that it offers more protection for 5w20 applications than their 5w20 oil does. Now I see people saying that the Amsoil s2k thickens to almost a 40w after some use. Last week I bought 5 quarts of Havoline 5w20 for this upcoming oil change. I figured that I would stick with high-moly dino for break-in (vehicle had 7,400 miles when purchased and has ~10K now).

Now I see people talking about the importance of HTHS (I can't find any HTHS rating for Havoline 5w20 dino), and the effect of summer heat and long-range driving on 5w20 oil, and I am getting nervous.

I wouldn't mind using readily available synthetic after this next oil change with the Havoline to provide an extra margin of safety.

I recently found this site by searching for answers on 5w20, but now I have more questions than when I started out.

 

[Thorn]

Thank you for the replies. I was in the process of writing my last message when 427Z06 posted his reply, so I didn't see it.

At this point, I guess if I want to stay "over-the-counter", some flavor of M1 will probably be the way to go in the future.

Tom H.

 

[427Z06]

Thorn, IMHO I'd use the Amsoil S2k 0w30 for the summer months and save the Hav 5w20 for the winter months. Save your 5w20 receipts for warranty purposes.

 

[m6scargo]

Wouldn't the engines HAVE to be changed? When I say that, we have heard that bearing surfaces have changed and different alloys have evolved, which could be a reason why wears seems so low on UOA's

. Also wouldn't oil pumps have to be modified to account for the lack of viscosity?This is not a cut and dry issue. I just do not like being called stupid or ignorant by the thick crowd because I follow manufacturers recomondations when I don't have a choice for warranty reasons. What I really want to know is if xw-20 will protect enough to get my car to 100-150,000 miles with 3000 mile OCI's. Please don't give me the extended OCI deal because I am not interested. I like to get under the car and look around and my driving habits are not consistent. plus i have goten some very typically unreliable vehicles to 100,000+ miles doing this.

 

[bulwnkl]

I agree with above for the Pilot. I think Havoline or Exxon are both going to give you outstanding performance at a very attractive price. I also think M1 is likely a decent compromise if you really want a synthetic or a higher HTHS viscosity. I think the UOAs and millions of users, though, show that you do not need anything more than the 5W20s mentioned for excellent service and durability from your Honda.
My RedLine recommendation was aimed specifically at the request for high-oil-temp, high-HTHS, low-SAE-grade.

 

[Thorn]

That sounds like a good plan. I was also thinking about saving 5 quarts of dumped 5w20 in case any warranty issues arose. I guess that is cheating, but would it work?

I figure that if I use a good quality Xw30 synthetic, any future problems will in no way be oil related. However, the dealer or mfg. could come back and use that as an excuse to not honor the warranty.

What I'm thinking of doing is not very ethical, but neither would their blaming my perfectly fine Xw30 oil for engine failure be ethical either. I would merely be beating them at their own game.

I don't think my receipt from AZ listed the weight of the Havoline or had a code number. I will double check.

 

[427Z06]

As long as the oil looks reasonable, i.e., the engine isn't all sludged up or something, they won't be able to tell the difference between Hav 5w20 and S2K 0w30 short of testing it, which I doubt they would do.

If a problem arises it'll be what you tell them and the documentation you provide that they'll base their decisions on. Receipts and an "alternative" log book is probably all you need. If some receipts don't have the grade or product code, I wouldn't sweat it. Just insure the ones that do, reference back to a 5w20.

 

[OMCWankel]

bulwnkl, thanks for the reply!

Redline 5w-20 does hold it's viscosity very well in the rotary, as is shown in compaddict's UOA postings. The only thing I do not like is the iron at 35-50 in his UOA's. He does push his motor harder than I do.

Spacerx has shown very good UOA's on the wear metals using Motorcraft 5w-20, but the viscosity is low.

The other question is synth vs dino in a rotary. Do not jump into that debate unless you have full body armor