Hydrogen Neue Klasse EV?

[SC Maintenance]

I am certainly not going to defend hydrogen, there is an expert on this board, and he educated me. Perhaps he will comment.

But from a German standpoint it might make more sense. Germany lacks fossil fuels. They are running out of ways to make electricity. Germany is a small country where possibly easier to set up distribution of hydrogen. Possibly they have some other production methods in mind for the future.

In the end, it may make no sense now, but Oil and Lithium are both finite resources. So who knows?

 

[kschachn]

I am certainly not going to defend hydrogen, there is an expert on this board, and he educated me. Perhaps he will comment.

But from a German standpoint it might make more sense. Germany lacks fossil fuels. They are running out of ways to make electricity. Germany is a small country where possibly easier to set up distribution of hydrogen. Possibly they have some other production methods in mind for the future.

There aren't that many and this is the crux of the problem. One isn't going to mine hydrogen nor drill a well for it. Without natural gas as a feed stock the thermodynamics get really ugly, really fast. Even with gas there is little reason to go through decomposition, why not just burn the methane in the first place? Neither one can be liquified at room temperature, so what is the storage and transport advantage? The whole thing is a box of rocks being promoted by everything but a technical need.

Perhaps Germany is planning a 93-million mile pipeline.

 

[oil pan 4]

Could be a great idea if they found a cost effective way to produce hydrogen. The constant argument is how much energy it takes to make it. I don’t know the answer but the idea of it is pretty cool.

The answer is 50kwh per Kg of hydrogen.
The problem is a Kg of hydrogen will only move a hydrogen car 50 miles on the highway and 70 miles in the city.
That's like a mile a kWh.
Even an ego chariot cyber truck should be getting at least 2 miles per kWh.
I get 3.6 to 4.4 miles per kWh in my 2011 leaf with it's stone age technology.

 

[oil pan 4]

I am certainly not going to defend hydrogen, there is an expert on this board, and he educated me. Perhaps he will comment.

But from a German standpoint it might make more sense. Germany lacks fossil fuels. They are running out of ways to make electricity. Germany is a small country where possibly easier to set up distribution of hydrogen. Possibly they have some other production methods in mind for the future.

In the end, it may make no sense now, but Oil and Lithium are both finite resources. So who knows?

Hydrogen gets debunked with like 6th grade math.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Hydrogen gets debunked with like 6th grade math.

It does today.

Apparently you didn't read my post.

The first airplanes looked like birds and people tried to flap the wings.

 

[kschachn]

It does today.

Apparently you didn't read my post.

The first airplanes looked like birds and people tried to flap the wings.

Sure but they weren’t up against the thermodynamics of first decomposing stable compounds in order to get a net energy gain.

People bring up aviation (or space flight) as examples of “things people said couldn’t be done” but they don’t understand the difference between a technical challenge and one and involves suspension of physics.

Very hard to compete with something you basically just suck out of the ground.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Sure but they weren’t up against the thermodynamics of first decomposing stable compounds in order to get a net energy gain.

People bring up aviation (or space flight) as examples of “things people said couldn’t be done” but they don’t understand the difference between a technical challenge and one and involves suspension of physics.

Very hard to compete with something you basically just suck out of the ground.

Didn't read my post either. There is no oil in Germany. No lithium either.

Lets say I am a German government planner. I look over the world and say, hmm, in 20 years from now the Ukraine/Russia will haver resorted to hurling rocks at each other, China will have imploded, The middle east will be on fire, and the US, broke and sick of globalization anyway, will have taken their aircraft carriers and gone home.

So, I can return to subsistence farming, or I can fire our nuclear reactors back up and produce hydrogen to use to drive around.

Do you know that in the failing days of WW2 when the Germans had no gas, they figured out how to run some tanks on distilled wood alcohol?

Yes, if your head is stuck in your own frame of reference it makes no sense.

 

[kschachn]

Didn't read my post either. There is no oil in Germany. No lithium either.

Lets say I am a German government planner. I look over the world and say, hmm, in 20 years from now the Ukraine/Russia will haver resorted to hurling rocks at each other, China will have imploded, The middle east will be on fire, and the US, broke and sick of globalization anyway, will have taken their aircraft carriers and gone home.

So, I can return to subsistence farming, or I can fire our nuclear reactors back up and produce hydrogen to use to drive around.

Do you know that in the failing days of WW2 when the Germans had no gas, they figured out how to run some tanks on distilled wood alcohol?

Yes, if your head is stuck in your own frame of reference it makes no sense.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I did read your post. Sure you can use electricity to decompose water but that’s even worse than reforming methane.

I don’t think it’s my head that’s stuck somewhere.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I did read your post. Sure you can use electricity to decompose water but that’s even worse than reforming methane.

I don’t think it’s my head that’s stuck somewhere.

Maybe. Maybe there is even a consulting contract waiting for you in Germany.

But the Germans don't have natural gas either, so reforming methane is also off the table.

 

[kschachn]

Maybe. Maybe there is even a consulting contract waiting for you in Germany.

But the Germans don't have natural gas either, so reforming methane is also off the table.

Yes I meant that was part of the problem not the solution. I know where they get their gas.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Yes I meant that was part of the problem not the solution. I know where they get their gas.

OK. But so its worse. Assuming its the only option available, or walking, then what?

I am not saying its going to happen, but there is a possibility of reasons why its continued to be pursued, if you get out of your box and look over the horizon.

Or maybe the Germans are just idiots?

Often you need many different ideas to come up with one that actually works.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Didn't read my post either. There is no oil in Germany. No lithium either.

Lets say I am a German government planner. I look over the world and say, hmm, in 20 years from now the Ukraine/Russia will haver resorted to hurling rocks at each other, China will have imploded, The middle east will be on fire, and the US, broke and sick of globalization anyway, will have taken their aircraft carriers and gone home.

So, I can return to subsistence farming, or I can fire our nuclear reactors back up and produce hydrogen to use to drive around.

Do you know that in the failing days of WW2 when the Germans had no gas, they figured out how to run some tanks on distilled wood alcohol?

Yes, if your head is stuck in your own frame of reference it makes no sense.

Maybe they'll fire up the decommissioned nuclear plants and use them to split water? I can't imagine how much that would cost.

 

[oil pan 4]

It does today.

Apparently you didn't read my post.

The first airplanes looked like birds and people tried to flap the wings.

I did read your post too.
Current hydrogen cars aren't cargo cult reproductions of complicated systems.
None of this is new technology.
What is a hydrogen car? It's pretty much an electric car powered by an air oxidized hydrogen fuel cell.
Cars have been around for over a hundred years.
Electric motors have been around longer.
Fuell cells have been around since the 1960s.
People have been trying to come up a cheaper better faster way to make hydrogen for about 100 years.
What part of a hydrogen car is the technological equivalent of a guy flapping in a bird suit?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Maybe they'll fire up the decommissioned nuclear plants and use them to split water? I can't imagine how much that would cost.

I am not saying it will work. But things change in context.

Since the industrial revolution Germany has been constrained by energy. They started 2 world wars over it, participated in the cold war over it. To prevent the next war they figured they would kill 2 birds with 1 stone, become Russia's largest customer. Surely they won't start a war if were there largest customer. Well that didn't work either.

So in that context - rethink it? Your looking in context of cost or alternates. But if you have no alternates? What if the alternate is the next war. Wars are not cheap either.

Anyway, I am out. Feel free to make fun of the Germans if you like.

 

[kschachn]

I am not saying it will work. But things change in context.

Since the industrial revolution Germany has been constrained by energy. They started 2 world wars over it, participated in the cold war over it. To prevent the next war they figured they would kill 2 birds with 1 stone, become Russia's largest customer. Surely they won't start a war if were there largest customer. Well that didn't work either.

So in that context - rethink it? Your looking in context of cost or alternates. But if you have no alternates? What if the alternate is the next war. Wars are not cheap either.

Anyway, I am out. Feel free to make fun of the Germans if you like.

Who is making fun of them? Not having a lot of energy resources describes many nations, not just the Germans. They do have uranium and yes that is a viable source. But why decompose a stable oxide just to recombine it again in a combustion engine? That's a hard road. Just use the electricity instead rather than tacking on one more intensive process.

 

[oil pan 4]

Didn't read my post either. There is no oil in Germany. No lithium either.

Lets say I am a German government planner. I look over the world and say, hmm, in 20 years from now the Ukraine/Russia will haver resorted to hurling rocks at each other, China will have imploded, The middle east will be on fire, and the US, broke and sick of globalization anyway, will have taken their aircraft carriers and gone home.

So, I can return to subsistence farming, or I can fire our nuclear reactors back up and produce hydrogen to use to drive around.

Do you know that in the failing days of WW2 when the Germans had no gas, they figured out how to run some tanks on distilled wood alcohol?

Yes, if your head is stuck in your own frame of reference it makes no sense.

Germany has coal. I can think of 2 ways to get hydrogen from coal.

 

[kschachn]

Germany has coal. I can think of 2 ways to get hydrogen from coal.

Yes there is that if you subsequently sequester the CO2. Otherwise no way they will do that if they're on the hydrogen path in the first place.

 

[oil pan 4]

Yes there is that if you subsequently sequester the CO2. Otherwise no way they will do that if they're on the hydrogen path in the first place.

Hey I was saving that for later lol.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Car & Driver - 2028 BMW H2 vehicle This short article mentions some of our responses.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Mystery solved. @SC Maintenance , @JeffKeryk @kschachn

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/0...MI3qGt6oG-iAMVMi3UAR25lAbzEAMYASAAEgIWOfD_BwE