Hydrogen Neue Klasse EV?

[JHZR2]

so since it hasn't been brought up ,I would add hydrogen embrittlement to the list of issues and that it apparently seeps through containment at a rate of 2% every 30 days if under pressure.
this is not a 'fuel' i would want under my car.

That depends upon the tankage and materials selection.

Does 2% in 30 days ever create a risk of reaching a meaningful fraction of LEL?!?

Dubious.

Wasteful, sure.

 

[oil pan 4]

If you research the subject extensively, there just isn’t a good and efficient path to the end-to-end creation, storage, transfer, and use.

I spent over ten years developing fuel cell generators. Tech has progressed, but the challenges with hydrogen still have baggage. More so than EV or whatnot. These vehicles that are leased - not sold, kept new, treated carefully, and never go too far… so having umpteen new models doesn’t mean a lot imo.

I’d argue that an NG PHEV would be a far greener solution than hydrogen.

Yeah since every viable scenario has the hydrogen coming from natural gas in the first place.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yeah since every viable scenario has the hydrogen coming from natural gas in the first place.

Yup, I've mentioned this before. Currently, 98% of hydrogen is produced via methane reformation. Using hydrogen produced that way is considerably more emissions intense (and consumes considerably more energy) than just using the methane directly in a fuel cell.

 

[JHZR2]

Yup, I've mentioned this before. Currently, 98% of hydrogen is produced via methane reformation. Using hydrogen produced that way is considerably more emissions intense (and consumes considerably more energy) than just using the methane directly in a fuel cell.

I’m not sure I’d go that far.

Steam reformation is endothermic. It produces carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Each carbon monoxide can be shifted to another H2.

So if you had a good source of heat, reacted smartly, and used direct, and avoided the pitfalls of a heat engine, there could be some efficiencies.

Unfortunately it really doesn’t work very well that way for portable applications. And good waste heat sources would either need to be cogen or nuclear. And for both why not just add a bit more rating?

In other words, maybe ok as a fired bottoming cycle. Not much else.

 

[OVERKILL]

I’m not sure I’d go that far.

Steam reformation is endothermic. It produces carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Each carbon monoxide can be shifted to another H2.

So if you had a good source of heat, reacted smartly, and used direct, and avoided the pitfalls of a heat engine, there could be some efficiencies.

Unfortunately it really doesn’t work very well that way for portable applications. And good waste heat sources would either need to be cogen or nuclear. And for both why not just add a bit more rating?

In other words, maybe ok as a fired bottoming cycle. Not much else.

Yes, it can be done with high temp nuclear, but I'm commenting more on the current process where it's gas consumed to run the process to split gas.

 

[alarmguy]

If you research the subject extensively, there just isn’t a good and efficient path to the end-to-end creation, storage, transfer, and use.

I spent over ten years developing fuel cell generators. Tech has progressed, but the challenges with hydrogen still have baggage. More so than EV or whatnot. These vehicles that are leased - not sold, kept new, treated carefully, and never go too far… so having umpteen new models doesn’t mean a lot imo.

I’d argue that an NG PHEV would be a far greener solution than hydrogen.

I can’t argue anything until the day we don’t reach an electric vehicle saturation point of 30% or more because lithium is so inefficient, expensive, obnoxiously heavy, cumbersome and dangerous, ridiculously expensive to insure/repair. Never mind an electric grid unable to handle 300 million cars.

It will be something else, and it will be something nobody thinks can happen, which is why inventors and those thinking outside of the box make boat loads of money. Just like what Tesla accomplished. There will be another “Tesla” and there always will be ever since mankind rubbed two sticks together.

 

[alarmguy]

That depends upon the tankage and materials selection.

Does 2% in 30 days ever create a risk of reaching a meaningful fraction of LEL?!?

Dubious.

Wasteful, sure.

Good post and let’s not forget an electric vehicle loses the same, more or far more percentage of its charge over 30 day period

 

[JHZR2]

Yes, it can be done with high temp nuclear, but I'm commenting more on the current process where it's gas consumed to run the process to split gas.

My point is it doesn’t have to be nuclear. It can be a bottoming cycle on any process that create waste heat.

 

[oil pan 4]

Yup, I've mentioned this before. Currently, 98% of hydrogen is produced via methane reformation. Using hydrogen produced that way is considerably more emissions intense (and consumes considerably more energy) than just using the methane directly in a fuel cell.

Which makes me wonder why they push hydrogen so hard.
For an air breathing fuel cell that is going to be ran probably under heavy load and isn't going to be very efficient why push for hydrogen.

 

[oil pan 4]

Good post and let’s not forget an electric vehicle loses the same, more or far more percentage of its charge over 30 day period

Bullspit. Lithium losses are more like 1% per month and add up to a few cents per month. If hydrogen seeps out at 2% per month and a hydrogen car full of hydrogen holds around $100 worth it's not hard to do the math on that one.

 

[Torrid]

Bullspit. Lithium losses are more like 1% per month and add up to a few cents per month. If hydrogen seeps out at 2% per month and a hydrogen car full of hydrogen holds around $100 worth it's not hard to do the math on that one.

The bigger losses are all settings issues. The regular Tesla issue is running Sentry or leaving battery conditioning on when it gets cold. There's no reason to keep the battery warm when it's not in use. I can leave the Model 3 in the garage for 2 days in -20 temperature and it doesn't lose percentage because we don't use any of these settings at home.

Hydrogen at this point is a novelty. Sure it's cool, but it's just not practical in any sense especially when people already complain about EV charging infrastructure even ignoring hydrogen fueling costs.

 

[oil pan 4]

I can’t argue anything until the day we don’t reach an electric vehicle saturation point of 30% or more because lithium is so inefficient, expensive, obnoxiously heavy, cumbersome and dangerous, ridiculously expensive to insure/repair. Never mind an electric grid unable to handle 300 million cars.

It will be something else, and it will be something nobody thinks can happen, which is why inventors and those thinking outside of the box make boat loads of money. Just like what Tesla accomplished. There will be another “Tesla” and there always will be ever since mankind rubbed two sticks together.

If you don't think the electric grid can handle electric cars then how is the grid going to handle hydrogen cars that will use at least 3 times the electricity to make hydrogen from water?
If the hydrogen is made from water a small car like a Nissan leaf is looking at requiring 1kwh per mile just to make the hydrogen needed to go 1 mile, not factoring in any power to compress it to the suicidal pressures the filling stations will likely store hydrogen at.
For comparison my obsolete 2011 nissan leaf already gets between 3.6 and 4.4 miles per kwh.
My Stone age Nissan leaf is already slaughtering 2025 hydrogen cars as far as efficiency goes.

 

[oil pan 4]

The bigger losses are all settings issues. The regular Tesla issue is running Sentry or leaving battery conditioning on when it gets cold. There's no reason to keep the battery warm when it's not in use. I can leave the Model 3 in the garage for 2 days in -20 temperature and it doesn't lose percentage because we don't use any of these settings at home.

Hydrogen at this point is a novelty. Sure it's cool, but it's just not practical in any sense especially when people already complain about EV charging infrastructure even ignoring hydrogen fueling costs.

I was talking about just the battery by it's self, no 1984 surveillance state nightmare accessories.
In something like a Tesla with all that dystopian tech running I've heard they're losing a large portion of their charge in a few months.
If someone had a hypothetical future hydrogen powered equivalent of a Tesla and left all the power drain settings they may find after a few weeks of sitting their last hydrogen fill up is mostly gone.

 

[Torrid]

I was talking about just the battery by it's self, no 1984 surveillance state nightmare accessories.
In something like a Tesla with all that dystopian tech running I've heard they're losing a large portion of their charge in a few months.
If someone had a hypothetical future hydrogen powered equivalent of a Tesla and left all the power drain settings they may find after a few weeks of sitting their last hydrogen fill up is mostly gone.

That was my point though, left to it's own devices there's not really a place for power to leak out so to speak as you mention.

 

[JTK]

I’m not sure I’d go that far.

Steam reformation is endothermic. It produces carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Each carbon monoxide can be shifted to another H2.

So if you had a good source of heat, reacted smartly, and used direct, and avoided the pitfalls of a heat engine, there could be some efficiencies.

Unfortunately it really doesn’t work very well that way for portable applications. And good waste heat sources would either need to be cogen or nuclear. And for both why not just add a bit more rating?

In other words, maybe ok as a fired bottoming cycle. Not much else.

Our SMR produces ~160kcfh @ ~200psig.

For the product stream, CO is captured in a catalyst bed. The mercaptans added to the natural gas are also removed in a "de-sulfurizer" catalyst bed. The product stream is ultimately processed in pressure-swing adsorption beds that remove the remainder of the CO, CO2, N2, etc, yielding pure H2 gas.

The regeneration gas (mostly product H2) used for the PSA beds is burned in the furnace that heats the main catalyst tubes which do the magic with the steam and natural gas.

The flue gas emitted from the furnace has loads of Co2, water and some CO in it. We are capped at what we are allowed to emit, and it's continuously monitored. Some SMRs are setup to capture the CO2 from the flue gas and produce dry ice and liquid CO2.

I am not nearly as smart as you fellers with the thermodynamic and numbers talk and I am sure I've missed a bunch of other things..

You also need compression equipment, blowers and an entire water treatment system to treat the water used for steam. Lots of chemicals, pumps, tankage and treatment needed for that.

Then you need a purge N2 gas (and a LOT of it) for startup and when the plant is down.

The major expense of course is the natural gas. Then electrical and water. The catalysts all have replacement intervals as well and are super expensive.

 

[JHZR2]

Our SMR produces ~160kcfh @ ~200psig.

For the product stream, CO is captured in a catalyst bed. The mercaptans added to the natural gas are also removed in a "de-sulfurizer" catalyst bed. The product stream is ultimately processed in pressure-swing adsorption beds that remove the remainder of the CO, CO2, N2, etc, yielding pure H2 gas.

The regeneration gas (mostly product H2) used for the PSA beds is burned in the furnace that heats the main catalyst tubes which do the magic with the steam and natural gas.

The flue gas emitted from the furnace has loads of Co2, water and some CO in it. We are capped at what we are allowed to emit, and it's continuously monitored. Some SMRs are setup to capture the CO2 from the flue gas and produce dry ice and liquid CO2.

I am not nearly as smart as you fellers with the thermodynamic and numbers talk and I am sure I've missed a bunch of other things..

You also need compression equipment, blowers and an entire water treatment system to treat the water used for steam. Lots of chemicals, pumps, tankage and treatment needed for that.

Then you need a purge N2 gas (and a LOT of it) for startup and when the plant is down.

The major expense of course is the natural gas. Then electrical and water. The catalysts all have replacement intervals as well and are super expensive.

I’m surprised you don’t shift the CO in a subsequent reaction. It’s effectively free at that point.

But as I said, it really doesn’t (can’t?) work well for mobile applications, at least other than maybe an LNg ship that has engines running off of LNG and want to use a fuel cell running as a bottoming cycle methane reforming using the engine waste heat.

That isn’t going to the supermarket in your green vehicle of course…

 

[JTK]

I’m surprised you don’t shift the CO in a subsequent reaction. It’s effectively free at that point.

It may be. It's catalyst requires some product H2 to be injected into it for it to work most effectively. Unfortunately, As you can tell, I'm beginner level for this particular process at our site.

Another fun fact, if the main catalyst tubes that do the steam/methane magic drop below a minimum temp in the furnace while methane is still flowing though them, the end result is toxic nickel carbonyl gas. Thus the importance for nitrogen purge gas. There are many critical operating parameters built into the plant that will automatically shut it down.

Like you say, there's so much to this method for "making" pure H2, I don't see how you could do it at a residential or portable level safely and cost effectively.

 

[kschachn]

Which makes me wonder why they push hydrogen so hard.

Solely due to the singular product of combustion.

Other than that, it is a ridiculous solution since hydrogen cannot be mined or otherwise found native in the environment.

 

[alarmguy]

Sometimes I’m a little surprised at some comments in here.
Some think that I am a pro hydrogen person meaning the next step in all things sustainable fuel.
Not really, as much as I do think the possibilities are limitless and some think I am saying it is a certain thing.

What I am saying is there is no way on earth the electric grid is going to charge 300 million cars and close down all the gas stations in the United States. Sorry not happening.

I do think with an open mind hydrogen is a distinct possibility and I can’t be completely out of my mind. Being big box retailers like Walmart, Amazon and Target currently use hydrogen powered forklifts.
Some businesses power their buildings with hydrogen. Toyota gets made fun of because of its investigation of hydrogen, BMW same thing.

What I am saying is there’s many close minds in here. Sometimes you have to think out of the box which is why certain people come along in the history of mankind and change everyone’s way of thinking.

Here is another one, Sunpower created hydrogen fuel and drinkable water.
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/20...ater-lead-low-cost-green-hydrogen-clean-water

No matter what, the electric grid is not going to replace gasoline

 

[Torrid]

Sometimes I’m a little surprised at some comments in here.
Some think that I am a pro hydrogen person meaning the next step in all things sustainable fuel.
Not really, as much as I do think the possibilities are limitless and some think I am saying it is a certain thing.

What I am saying is there is no way on earth the electric grid is going to charge 300 million cars and close down all the gas stations in the United States. Sorry not happening.

I do think with an open mind hydrogen is a distinct possibility and I can’t be completely out of my mind. Being big box retailers like Walmart, Amazon and Target currently use hydrogen powered forklifts.
Some businesses power their buildings with hydrogen. Toyota gets made fun of because of its investigation of hydrogen, BMW same thing.

What I am saying is there’s many close minds in here. Sometimes you have to think out of the box which is why certain people come along in the history of mankind and change everyone’s way of thinking.

Here is another one, Sunpower created hydrogen fuel and drinkable water.
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/20...ater-lead-low-cost-green-hydrogen-clean-water

No matter what, the electric grid is not going to replace gasoline

I still don’t think the intention is to replace gasoline, just offset it by giving other options.