Hybrids bad for long-term US economy?

[Jim Allen]

I owned a mid-'70s Datsun 510 for six years and drove it all over the country. It had a 1600cc OHC engine (mine was modified with a header and free flow exhaust.. specifially to get better mileage) and I challenge anyone's claim of regularly getting 50mpg with that type of car... unless there were special circumstances I don't know about. A real world 35mpg, perhaps. Sunruh, I'm not calling you a liar but maybe your math was off, you inconsistently filled the tank to different levels, changed the tires size or your speedo was off. All of these could lead to "optimistic" MPG. You can only get so much work out of a gallon of fuel and those older carbureted engines weren't nearly as good as the modern ones of doing that.

BTW, I agree with the general consensus on hybrids. They are a feel-food marketing tool that essentially keeps us off the real issues. I think it may tend to dilute or slow down the research on better solutions because some of the public pressure will ease. Since they "did something" and the uninformed jumped on that "blue-sky" bandwagon (including government), the tendency is to reap the profits and not spend as much for R&D on new stuff..

 

[Jim Allen]

quote:

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"They are a feel-food marketing tool..."

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Whoops, I meant to say "feel-good!"

 

[sunruh]

jim,
i'm not calling you a liar either, but maybe my math is right and you simply cannot drive?
never mind that motortrend tested the datsun 510 at over 50mpg as well.

 

[Jim Allen]

Sorry sunruh, I'll belive 50mpg from a 510 when I see it. Especially with three guys (at least 500 pounds worth of guys), plus gear. I ran mine too long and tried too hard to eke mpg out of it during the gas crunch. And, yes, I can drive. mid to high '30s is as good as I got, and that was travelling light.

As to Motor Trend, if you can get me the month and year of the 510 test, I'll look for it. I would be amazed but if I can find it and it backs you up, I'll eat a crow sandwich on BITOG and offer you an apology and a "yudaman."

Before we go too far, I guess we ought to clarify our 510s. I'm talking out the boxy one, built from '68-74 with McPherson struts all around that had a 97 hp (gross), 1600cc OHC engine that was a 4-cyl. version of the 240Z engine with a 2bbl downdraft Hitachi carb, 4-speed manual and 3.70:1 axle ratio. Mine was a '73.

Finally, a "challenge" is not an insult and your answer makes me think you took it that way. Sorry if you did. I was simply pointing out that it's easy to get inaccrurate MPG readings

 

[oilyriser]

At 55 mph, a Sunfire should easily top 50mpg.

 

[OriginHacker21]

Yes, oilyriser

My only problem was - the start of an IOWA Winter. Only recently have I learned about "winter" gas. So, a lot of factors didn't help, including going in a ditch after an ice storm. lol

Now to go and get my flat tire repaired at wal-mart. brb.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by robbobster:
Let's add "synchronized stoplights" to the list of proven fuel savers.

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Unfortunately, too much of the general public seems to think that as long as a traffic light changes colors once in a while, it's working correctly.

Government only does what the general public demands of them.

 

[mettech]

I suggest that we make all of the roads down hill.

 

[oilyriser]

put all intersections at the tops of hills, so you can always coast to a stop. When roads are slippery a sudden red light won't be so bad.

 

[Shannow]

nahh, all intersections should be at the bottom of a valley.

All people with no forethought and/or anticipation will cease to consume.

 

[brianl703]

All intersections should be at the apex of a curve, preferably a sharp one. Bonus points if they can be arranged also to be at the bottom of a valley, the steeper the better. Double bonus points if all of this is on a road that was built in the last 20 years.

 

[PandaBear]

When I rented a Prius for a business trip (yeah, you can rent one in Portland airport's Enterprise) I only got 45mpg out of a week worth of driving, not even close to their 55mpg claim.

If you are getting around 36-40 in a Corolla, why bother with a Prius?

 

[glxpassat]

How much does the battery replacement cost when they go bad? I'm sure the depreciation curve will be steep as a hybrid ages.

 

[jmacmaster]

Nobody really knows the cost of replacement batteries, because the cars haven't been around long enough for anyone to have had to replace the batteries. Estimates range from $2,000 to $6,000, with most estimates being in the $2-3,000 range. I'm not optimistic, given the insane prices for car parts, especially the parts you absolutely have to have, and the fact that they'll have you over a barrel when you need new batteries.

As to the claimed mpg of various vehicles, I'd be rich if I had a buck for every ridiculous mpg claim that I've heard. My favorite is the number of guys I know running full-size pickups with big diesels who claim the mid to high 20's while pulling a trailer with a 6-12,000 lb. loaded weight. Yeah, sure. I'm convinced that a lot of people are either flat out lying, in denial, or have no idea how to properly measure mpg and use a totally worthless measurement such as how many miles they get before their tank is almost empty, or is on empty, or etc.

 

[OriginHacker21]

$6,000 for a battery?! These things better last longer than laptop batteries (1 year or so).

I have yet to see of a hybrid getting 70mpg. Out here in the flat desert (Apple Valley, CA) my co-worker's Prius gets 40mpg.

I'd be more than happy/economical to settle for a Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Neon, etc...

 

[PandaBear]

Trust me, the battery is expensive, otherwise all car will be electric by now. The material cost of the battery in Prius is about $3k, plus profit and markup $6k is about right.

Back in college the FutureCar (DOE's Hybrid competition) prototype we build had an Ovonic battery pack that cost $200,000 retail (yes, 200k) and it made a Taurus goes almost 80mpg on an 75kw electric motor and 40hp 1.0L 3 cylinder engine.

Everything is possible with enough battery power.

 

[robbobster]

Funny thing about those battery packs...they're just a bunch of D cell Lithium Ion or NiMH batteries bundled together, with some electronics to control them.

 

[brianl703]

They're probably rectangular (aka "prismatic") cells, not round.

 

[PandaBear]

Last time I heard they are NiMH, but definitely not regular D Cell quality you see on the street. Also remember their manufacturing volume and profit, they usually make 50%+ profit on OEM auto parts that have no high volume domestic 2nd source.

 

[oilyriser]

Garbage trucks should have regenerative braking.