HTO-06 vs GM4718M Mobil 1

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: JAG
An oil company would be unwise these days to make an oil high in PAO content for use in an oil meant to meet API SM/GF-4 and be used for factory recommended OCIs. The cost to them is higher than if Group III were used and they'd still end up with the same certifications.


Exactly. There is no technical problem making an SM/GF-4 oil with high PAO or PAO/ester content.

Tom NJ

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Mark,

Here is where you can get MSDSs for Japan: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx

Here is the PDS for M1 0W-30 AFE showing pour point: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_0W-30.asp

Agreed that M1 5W-30 might tolerate high temperatures better in terms of deposit formation. We can't be sure based though since it's possible that 5W-30 was chosen for marketing reasons to be the only M1 viscosity grade that passes the HT0-06 spec. or maybe that spec. only allows 5W-30. I don't know if either is true because I'm not on the inside of XOM (obviously) and I've never seen details on the HT0-6 spec.

I've never heard of a M1 0W-30 European Formula sold in North America. I think the name "AFE" is fairly new but am not sure if it was just a renaming or that plus reformulation.

I know that the EP formulations changed years ago. In addition to specs. met being different, the additive package changed significantly as shown in UOAs and Product Data Sheets. The old versions had higher metallic element content in the add package which can have a significant effect on fuel economy. I also know that there are several high PAO content boutique motor oils that are not API Starburst certified. It is also true that there is no accident that there is a correlation but that does not imply a cause-effect relationship. There are several potential reasons: high cost of certifying is a big one and also those certifications not being a high enough priority of those companies' customer bases. An oil company would be unwise these days to make an oil high in PAO content for use in an oil meant to meet API SM/GF-4 and be used for factory recommended OCIs. The cost to them is higher than if Group III were used and they'd still end up with the same certifications.

What I asked for proof on is what's below in bold:

Originally Posted By: Mark888
It is no accident that the boutique oils with very high levels of PAO are not API startbust (Energy Saving Formula) certified. M1 had to change their EP version a few years ago to get the starbust certification and lowered the amount of PAO/Ester stock to do it.

Motor oil companies are finding out that a high quality Group III oil with some modest amount of PAO/Ester stock provides adequate protection and yields better gas mileage benefits over 100% PAO/Ester.

I checked out 3 different 0W-30 MSDS's on the website you provided:

- EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION (country USA selected) Revision Date 21JAN2005
- EXXONMOBIL ASIA PACIFIC PTE. LTD. (COMPANY NO.: 196800312N) (country USA Selected), EHS Approval Date: 23APR2002
- EXXONMOBIL YUGEN KAISHA (Japan country selected) Revision Date 05April2009

All three have different specs and I suspect that at least two of them are different oils (but I have no proof of that). It is hard to tell whether the specs are just sloppy MSDS record keeping, out of date, or if they are different oils.

Regarding the change in formula for EP, I read the M1 website very carefully a few years ago regarding their EP oils, and they flatly said EP oils were not API Starburst certified and they were not recommended for engines still under warranty. Then they changed the website to say they were all certified (except 15W-50), and that EP will not void a manufacturer warranty (assuming the appropriate viscosity is used). So I have reached the conclusion by deductive logic that they changed the formula. I have no proof, but I would willing to wager a moderate sum.

Regarding the lack of certification of 100% synthetic boutique oils, I completely reject the explanation by Amsoil that it is too costly do get the certs. Virtually all of their non-100% synthetic oils are API Starburst certified. So I don't believe it is a coincidence that not a single one of the 100% synthetic Amsoil motor oils are API Starburst certified. And I don't believe it is a coincidence that other high PAO content oils are not API Starburst certified.

Regarding M1 0W-30 European Formula oil, I definitely saw it about a year ago. It had certs similar to GC, which is very different than certs for M1 0W-30 AFE.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
I completely reject the explanation by Amsoil that it is too costly do get the certs.

No kidding the price they charge for the stuff it should be chump change to them..

 

[buster]

Quote:
An oil company would be unwise these days to make an oil high in PAO content for use in an oil meant to meet API SM/GF-4 and be used for factory recommended OCIs. The cost to them is higher than if Group III were used and they'd still end up with the same certifications.


+1. I think this is the likely reason.

 

[SilverC6]

If you have a Honda, get the Honda spec oil.

If you have a 'Vette, you can use either since both oils meet the GM4718M spec.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
I checked out 3 different 0W-30 MSDS's on the website you provided:

- EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION (country USA selected) Revision Date 21JAN2005
- EXXONMOBIL ASIA PACIFIC PTE. LTD. (COMPANY NO.: 196800312N) (country USA Selected), EHS Approval Date: 23APR2002
- EXXONMOBIL YUGEN KAISHA (Japan country selected) Revision Date 05April2009

All three have different specs and I suspect that at least two of them are different oils (but I have no proof of that). It is hard to tell whether the specs are just sloppy MSDS record keeping, out of date, or if they are different oils.

Yeah, it's hard to tell.

Originally Posted By: Mark888
Regarding the change in formula for EP, I read the M1 website very carefully a few years ago regarding their EP oils, and they flatly said EP oils were not API Starburst certified and they were not recommended for engines still under warranty. Then they changed the website to say they were all certified (except 15W-50), and that EP will not void a manufacturer warranty (assuming the appropriate viscosity is used). So I have reached the conclusion by deductive logic that they changed the formula. I have no proof, but I would willing to wager a moderate sum.

They definitely did reformulate and the additive package was definitely part of it. What I don't know is what, if any, changes were made to the base oil mix. You mentioned what the base oil mix changes were which is what I was questioning where you got that information. I thought that you assumed it was true but stated it as fact instead of opinion.

Originally Posted By: Mark888

Regarding the lack of certification of 100% synthetic boutique oils, I completely reject the explanation by Amsoil that it is too costly do get the certs. Virtually all of their non-100% synthetic oils are API Starburst certified. So I don't believe it is a coincidence that not a single one of the 100% synthetic Amsoil motor oils are API Starburst certified. And I don't believe it is a coincidence that other high PAO content oils are not API Starburst certified.

We can't agree on everything even after multiple exchanges but I offer a few things to think about. Every single oil a company makes that is put through API and ILSAC testing costs a lot of money. IOW, paying for it for some oils in their lineup (like Amsoil XL series) doesn't allow their more expensive oils to get tested for free. Using high amounts of costly PAO for an oil that's only going to get API SM & ILSAC GF-4 is a waste of money. Friction modifiers, additives that increase coefficient of friction (notably many detergents & ZDDP), viscometrics, and base oil mix are the main factors in fuel economy tests. Use of majority PAO & much smaller percentage of esters has been said by formulators to be one of the ways to improve gas mileage. These are not the most cost effective ways to improve gas mileage though. Viscometrics and good choice of friction modifiers are more cost effective. Many dino oils meet ILSAC GF-4 fuel economy. That is achieved in spite of using less ideal base oils by appropriate balance of other properties. I doubt you will take these on faith and if so, spend some time reading literature on this subject to get it straight from the industry experts. Tom NJ, who posted above about this, is an excellent authority as well.

Originally Posted By: Mark888

Regarding M1 0W-30 European Formula oil, I definitely saw it about a year ago. It had certs similar to GC, which is very different than certs for M1 0W-30 AFE.

I'm sorry to doubt what you think you saw but I think you saw M1 0W-40, not 0W-30. I think I would known of such an oil if it was widely distributed in the US between around 2002 and now. I've been a user of European version oils since 2002 and have been very informed about what oils Mobil 1 has made since then.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: JAG
[I'm sorry to doubt what you think you saw but I think you saw M1 0W-40, not 0W-30. I think I would known of such an oil if it was widely distributed in the US between around 2002 and now. I've been a user of European version oils since 2002 and have been very informed about what oils Mobil 1 has made since then.

It clearly was not widely distributed. Some M1 products are only generally available through certain auto dealers and others are probably not available anywhere in the US. Whatever it was, it was labeled "European Formula" on the front of the bottle.

 

[JAG]

I'd be interested in trying such an oil from M1. I always wanted to see a 0W-30 Mobil 1 oil that met GC-like Euro specs. M1 0W-40 is "stretched" farther with VIIs than I'd like.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I'd be interested in trying such an oil from M1. I always wanted to see a 0W-30 Mobil 1 oil that met GC-like Euro specs. M1 0W-40 is "stretched" farther with VIIs than I'd like.

If I did indeed see it (as opposed to really seeing a 0W-40), I have not seen it again other than one time. I don't think they make it anymore if it ever did exist.