HTO-06 vs GM4718M Mobil 1

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Is the Honda/Acura HTO-06 spec more stringent to meet than GM4718M for the Corvette? I wanted to try Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy but after side by siding it with 5W-30 I realized it doesn't meet HTO-06. Yet the 5W-30 meets both. I decided to ask you folks if you think the standard 5W-30 is actually the better oil? It wasn't the extra fuel economy that interested me. I simply thought the 0W-30 would have a better base(perhaps more PAO) than the standard 5W. After seeing that Mobil 1 conceals pour point data on all AFE 0W's, perhaps Advanced Forking Formula is the more appropriate name? - Isn't the 0W-30 actually thicker than the 5W or 10W-30 to begin with? - Which would offer the longer drain interval?
 
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Either will work. Probably a similar/same chemistry. The Honda test is just a high temp oxidation test and the GM is a combo of high/low temp. What are you using it for?
 
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The HTO spec is directed at reducing the sludge forming characteristics in the oil at high temperatures. I think the GM spec only addresses high temperature capabilities. I much prefer the HTO spec as it was targeting their turbo engines.
 

Art_Vandelay

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 Originally Posted By: Eddie
I much prefer the HTO spec as it was targeting their turbo engines.
GC and Mobil 1 0W-40 meet strict European specs like MB 229.5 and BMW LL-01. That makes it easy to see them as superb, off the shelf products. But for those of us with American and Japanese cars these oils aren't really appropriate. In this sense I'm just looking at what spec really distinguishes high end oil from very good oil. Specifically in the case of Mobil 1. I have these great $10 rebate forms burning a hole in my pocket, and Walmart is selling it for only $22, so I'm only interested in Mobil 1 right now.
 
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Art_Vandelay

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 Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Well, they are the best choices for any american vehicle that specs a 30 weight oil.
Do you think the 5W-30 has a longer potential life than the 0W-30?
 
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 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
. . . I have these great $10 rebate forms burning a hole in my pocket, and Walmart is selling it for only $22, so I'm only interested in Mobil 1 right now.
I may be able to save you a trip to Walmart. If you are holding the rebate forms I think you are, the "WM Automotive" listed on the website is not Walmart.
 

Art_Vandelay

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 Originally Posted By: Gurney
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
. . . I have these great $10 rebate forms burning a hole in my pocket, and Walmart is selling it for only $22, so I'm only interested in Mobil 1 right now.
I may be able to save you a trip to Walmart. If you are holding the rebate forms I think you are, the "WM Automotive" listed on the website is not Walmart.
No, I have the original rebates that had to be printed by April 1, so no exclusions on them. Thank you just the same.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Well, they are the best choices for any american vehicle that specs a 30 weight oil.
Do you think the 5W-30 has a longer potential life than the 0W-30?
Seeing that many 'syn" 5w30's are group III, doubtful(OTC). Equal maybe but a real syn like 0W30 is IMO better overall and will last longer. Schaeffer's 5W30's would probably be roughly equal since they have killer add packs.
 
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Art_Vandelay

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 Originally Posted By: wannafbody
 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
 Originally Posted By: wannafbody
Well, they are the best choices for any american vehicle that specs a 30 weight oil.
Do you think the 5W-30 has a longer potential life than the 0W-30?
Seeing that many 'syn" 5w30's are group III, doubtful(OTC). Equal maybe but a real syn like 0W30 is IMO better overall and will last longer. Schaeffer's 5W30's would probably be roughly equal since they have killer add packs.
I take it you mean real as in a PAO synthetic? If so, something like GC 0W-30 is more long lived I suppose? What's the real deal with EP? Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 doesn't meet HTO-06. Anyone think Mobil 1 purposely excludes that spec so nobody runs long drain intervals in that application? In other words it actually meets the spec, just not for 15,000 miles?
 
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 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
I wanted to try Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy but after side by siding it with 5W-30 I realized it doesn't meet HTO-06. Yet the 5W-30 meets both. I decided to ask you folks if you think the standard 5W-30 is actually the better oil? It wasn't the extra fuel economy that interested me. I simply thought the 0W-30 would have a better base(perhaps more PAO) than the standard 5W. After seeing that Mobil 1 conceals pour point data on all AFE 0W's, perhaps Advanced Forking Formula is the more appropriate name? - Isn't the 0W-30 actually thicker than the 5W or 10W-30 to begin with? - Which would offer the longer drain interval?
I don't know if you have seen my other posts on the difference between M1 0W-30 AFE and German Castrol Syntec 0W-30, but they are different animals. The GC is a European formula oil. M1 used to sell a 0W-30 European formula oil in the US market, but changed the formula to the very different Advanced Fuel Economy version. It not right to say that M1 5w-30 is better than 0W-30, because the M1 0W-30 offers fuel economy benefits over M1 5W-30. But in terms of high temp protection that is typically suggested for a Turbo engine (or other severe use), the M1 5W-30 is definitely better as you can see in the certifications. The M1 0W-30 AFE likely has less PAO than the M1 5W-30 (look at pour point and flash point of the two oils). I hate to say "thicker" but the M1 5W-30 oil is more robust if you need a robust oil, but if someone did not need a robust oil(sounds like you do) then the 0W-30 AFE might be a good choice for fuel savings. Drain interval is not relevant unless you get the oil that is spec'ed for your car. It makes no sense to say one oil last longer if does not meet the manufactuer specs for your engine. If you need Honda/Acura HTO-06, then M1 0W-30 will not do. There is no free lunch. It is no accident that the boutique oils with very high levels of PAO are not API startbust (Energy Saving Formula) certified. M1 had to change their EP version a few years ago to get the starbust certification and lowered the amount of PAO/Ester stock to do it. Motor oil companies are finding out that a high quality Group III oil with some modest amount of PAO/Ester stock provides adequate protection and yields better gas mileage benefits over 100% PAO/Ester. Remember that just 4-5 months ago the price of crude oil was $145 a barrel, more than $90 more expensive than it is today. If you care more about engine protection than gas mileage, then go with a synthetic 5W-30, or a European formula 0W-30, or 0W-40. Don't judge an oil by its viscosity rating. There are loopholes in the viscosity rating system big enough to drive a Mack truck through. Go by the certifications.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
What's the real deal with EP? Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 doesn't meet HTO-06. Anyone think Mobil 1 purposely excludes that spec so nobody runs long drain intervals in that application? In other words it actually meets the spec, just not for 15,000 miles?
I think someone posted that they called M1 Support and they said the EP does meet the HTO-06 spec (but I cannot guarantee that my memory is correct). Mobil support supposedly said the published info is not up to date. But you can ask them yourself to double-check that. People give the motor oil companies to much credit for keeping their specs accurate. In fact, I suspect there are many errors or omissions. And when a published spec changes, don't automatically assume the actual formula recently changed (it could have changed long ago and they are just now getting the info corrected).
 
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 Quote:
Motor oil companies are finding out that a high quality Group III oil with some modest amount of PAO/Ester stock provides adequate protection and yields better gas mileage benefits over 100% PAO/Ester.
I've heard this discussed before. I don't quite understand how that would really matter?
 

JAG

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 Originally Posted By: Mark888
The M1 0W-30 AFE likely has less PAO than the M1 5W-30 (look at pour point and flash point of the two oils).
The Japanese MSDS's say the opposite. As for data...pour point of 0W-30 is -54 C and 5W-30's is -48 C. Flash point of 0W-30 is 228 C and is 230 C for 5W-30. The data doesn't support your statement either.
 Originally Posted By: Mark888
I hate to say "thicker" but the M1 5W-30 oil is more robust if you need a robust oil, but if someone did not need a robust oil(sounds like you do) then the 0W-30 AFE might be a good choice for fuel savings.
The 5W-30 viscosity in many UOAs has been around 10.0 cST (virgin is 11.3 cST). 0W-30 viscosity in UOAs also is often around 10 cST (virgin is 11.0 cST). It's splitting hairs to differentiate their viscosities at 100 C. Virgin HTHS viscosities are also close.
 Originally Posted By: Mark888
There is no free lunch. It is no accident that the boutique oils with very high levels of PAO are not API startbust (Energy Saving Formula) certified. M1 had to change their EP version a few years ago to get the starbust certification and lowered the amount of PAO/Ester stock to do it.
What is your proof?
 
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 Originally Posted By: JAG
The Japanese MSDS's say the opposite. As for data...pour point of 0W-30 is -54 C and 5W-30's is -48 C. Flash point of 0W-30 is 228 C and is 230 C for 5W-30. The data doesn't support your statement either.
The US MSDS says that M1 0W-30 AFE has a pour point of -45 C. http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/AlternateFormat.aspx?DocumentID=354580&DocumentFormat=RTF The M1 0W-30 AFE pour point is not listed on the Product Data Sheet for US or Japan. I cannot find the Japan MSDS anymore (which I saw on the Japan site a few months ago). It looks like they may have removed them from the M1 Japan website. They say the MSDS can be requested by email. Do you have a link? I said in a previous post that M1 specs are not always consistent, and you may be correct about the pour point, but I just went by the US MSDS. In any case, just looking at the certifications, it does appear that M1 5W-30 has better high temperature protection if that is what is needed (and I am not just talking about flash point). M1 0W-30 AFE apparently (according to Mobil) better fuel economy and more friction modifiers. I am not saying that one is better than the other, because it depends on what one’s requirements are.
 Originally Posted By: JAG
The 5W-30 viscosity in many UOAs has been around 10.0 cST (virgin is 11.3 cST). 0W-30 viscosity in UOAs also is often around 10 cST (virgin is 11.0 cST). It's splitting hairs to differentiate their viscosities at 100 C. Virgin HTHS viscosities are also close.
Are all those tests using M1 0W-30 AFE (Advanced Fuel Economy) or is it possible that some were done using the 0W-30 European Formula? I thought that the AFE was fairly new?
 Originally Posted By: JAG
What is your proof?
Proof of what? That several high PAO content boutique motor oils are not API Starburst certified? That can easily be proven. That M1 changed the formula for EP several years ago so that it is now API Starburst certified? I followed the M1 EP website very closely and it was not too long ago that Mobil specifically did not recommend EP for engines under warranty because their EP oils were not API Starburst certified. That has clearly changed, and M1 claims that EP will not void any engine warranties (assuming you use the correct grade for your engine). Unfortunately, I cannot show you those old M1 EP web pages since they no longer exist.
 

JAG

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Mark, Here is where you can get MSDSs for Japan: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx Here is the PDS for M1 0W-30 AFE showing pour point: http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_0W-30.asp Agreed that M1 5W-30 might tolerate high temperatures better in terms of deposit formation. We can't be sure based though since it's possible that 5W-30 was chosen for marketing reasons to be the only M1 viscosity grade that passes the HT0-06 spec. or maybe that spec. only allows 5W-30. I don't know if either is true because I'm not on the inside of XOM (obviously) and I've never seen details on the HT0-6 spec. I've never heard of a M1 0W-30 European Formula sold in North America. I think the name "AFE" is fairly new but am not sure if it was just a renaming or that plus reformulation. I know that the EP formulations changed years ago. In addition to specs. met being different, the additive package changed significantly as shown in UOAs and Product Data Sheets. The old versions had higher metallic element content in the add package which can have a significant effect on fuel economy. I also know that there are several high PAO content boutique motor oils that are not API Starburst certified. It is also true that there is no accident that there is a correlation but that does not imply a cause-effect relationship. There are several potential reasons: high cost of certifying is a big one and also those certifications not being a high enough priority of those companies' customer bases. An oil company would be unwise these days to make an oil high in PAO content for use in an oil meant to meet API SM/GF-4 and be used for factory recommended OCIs. The cost to them is higher than if Group III were used and they'd still end up with the same certifications. What I asked for proof on is what's below in bold:
 Originally Posted By: Mark888
It is no accident that the boutique oils with very high levels of PAO are not API startbust (Energy Saving Formula) certified. M1 had to change their EP version a few years ago to get the starbust certification and lowered the amount of PAO/Ester stock to do it. Motor oil companies are finding out that a high quality Group III oil with some modest amount of PAO/Ester stock provides adequate protection and yields better gas mileage benefits over 100% PAO/Ester.
 
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