HPL premium plus 0w-40 2021 Ram 2500

[spasm3]

2021 Ram 6.4 gas 6300 miles on oil 8500 miles on vehicle. Mostly towing.
Oil in use 2 years 7 months. Fram ultra filter.

Oil changed to HPL Super car 0w-40 Fram endurance filter.

 

[I<3oil]

Holy cow those things leech copper from the cooling system

 

[UNC054]

Has plenty of base left to go further, but copper does need to wash out over the next few changes.

 

[spasm3]

Holy cow those things leech copper from the cooling system

Yes I think the oil cooler. Engine was probably still breaking in

 

[wwillson]

@spasm3 this is a great example of how not to throw money away when you buy a premium engine oil. Change the oil based on data. The TBN is good, the oxidation is great, and there are no contaminants. The oil could have run probably another year, but you got your money out of it over 31 months in use. Would your engine be any better off if you would have changed the oil once/yr? Not at all. Your pocket book is in better shape though and you didn't use resources with no gain. This is how extended drains should be done.

 

[I<3oil]

Yes I think the oil cooler. Engine was probably still breaking in

Yeah. That’s quite a bit though. I think the most I’ve seen on a used oil analysis is like 50-75

 

[spasm3]

@spasm3 this is a great example of how not to throw money away when you buy a premium engine oil. Change the oil based on data. The TBN is good, the oxidation is great, and there are no contaminants. The oil could have run probably another year, but you got your money out of it over 31 months in use. Would your engine be any better off if you would have change the oil once/yr? Not at all. Your pocket book is in better shape though and you didn't use resources with no gain. This is how extended drains should be done.

Yes, i only changed it, to get some data after over 2 years. That way i know i can run longer. I also changed it out of concern that the engine might still have break in metal, and also to see if the towing had much affect.

Now i know i can probably go 3-4 years.

Although, should i do one more 2 year 6k change due to the copper from break in ?

 

[buster]

Everything looks good. Wear metals are mostly break-in. Viscosity is perfect and no sign of any oxidation.

 

[wwillson]

Although, should i do one more 2 year 6k change due to the copper from break in ?

Not necessary, it won't get much better - see my used oil analysis

Thread 'Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL CK-4 5w-20 - 10,474 miles on oil - 184,710 miles total'

Oct 2, 2024

This sample is from the Durango that I used to own. I sold it to my Son and DIL, with the understanding that I get to maintain it. They were somewhat confused and when I told them I want the data for BITOG, they gave me an odd look. Go figure. Their driving habits are much different than mine. They do a lot of short trip driving, while I did a lot of long trips. It will be interesting to compare how short tripping affects the oil compared to long trips. One sample is no samples, but the first short trip sample doesn't look much different.

Previous UOA here

Google Docs...

• wwillson
• Replies: 36
• Forum: Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline

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[hemioiler]

Yeah. That’s quite a bit though. I think the most I’ve seen on a used oil analysis is like 50-75

That spike is very typical, lots of guys running Redline see the same thing.

First time I ran it, I had 94ppm with about 7500k miles on the oil. I'd say about 9 hours freeway towing total on that run. Dropped over each successive run, my last oil change was at 39 ppm on 6200 miles but its been hanging between 40 to 50.

 

[fantastic]

I'd assume it should come down since break-in. Cooper corrosion is possibly from high sulfur levels along w/engine material (copper obviously LOL).

 

[OVERKILL]

Yeah. That’s quite a bit though. I think the most I’ve seen on a used oil analysis is like 50-75

The two reports on my SRT had it had 126 and 118. RAM 1500 was 86 after 81,000km.

 

[I<3oil]

The two reports on my SRT had it had 126 and 118. RAM 1500 was 86 after 81,000km.

/faint

 

[Hohn]

Yes I think the oil cooler. Engine was probably still breaking in

Just an FYI from an old Cummins project I worked on.

Developing the 2010 X15, we were noticing that the pistons kept coking underside and even within the oil cooling galleries. It was so bad than on some of our more heinous abuse tests, the coking would prevent piston cooling enough to cause engine failure on an abuse test.

After poring over reams of test data, one of the most highly respected engineers at Cummins at the time noticed elevated copper levels. And after doing some literature research, he hypothesized that elevated copper was catalyzing some reactions leading to piston deposits.

The only oil-wetted surface in the engine where the copper could come from was the brazing material of the stainless oil cooler. So he rigged up a test with an aluminum cooler and ran to see what operating copper levels would be in the oil and to see whether the pistons would have similar coking and deposits.

The results were quite clear and stunning. With the aluminum cooler, the copper levels in the oil were essentially zero. But the most astounding thing was that the piston coking was ALSO ZERO.

And thus, every 2010 X15 went into production with an aluminum oil cooler instead of stainless cooler.


Now, this was tested using house oil (Premium blue 15w40) and of applicable spec (CJ-4 at the time) so it's not necessarily the case that all copper in oil will lead to piston deposits.


But I'd suggest that elevated copper levels aren't necessarily innocent. Especially on modern engines with oil squirters and gallery cooled pistons, if that copper contributes to deposits and coking, it could be a problem.

 

[KEVINK0000]

I’ve wondered if there wasn’t some downside to chelation

 

[Hohn]

I’ve wondered if there wasn’t some downside to chelation

Just my opinion, but the experience strongly suggested to me that there is.


I couldn't tell you what happens to copper levels over time or if the leaching ever stops or appreciably slows. It stands to reason that it would.

Also, it's worth mentioning that these X15s use monotherm steel pistons and run MUCH hotter than the aluminum pistons in most passenger cars. So the coking issue may not exists on a passenger simply from lower temps alone.

But if I can choose between copper in oil and no copper in oil, I know which one I would pick.

The other reason on diesel you want to avoid copper in oil is that there's always a small amount of oil carryover in a high pressure pump that is oil-lubricated (larger engines, not smaller fuel-lubed pumps like CP3s or CP4s). Which means if you have copper in your oil, you will end up with trace amounts in the fuel.

Yet trace amounts are enough to contribute to injector coking and nozzle deposits. As such, we measure and monitor quite carefully the amount of oil the pump will carry into the fuel, and internal engineering standards set acceptable limits.

 

[Sloppy_Snood]

Just an FYI from an old Cummins project I worked on.

The results were quite clear and stunning. With the aluminum cooler, the copper levels in the oil were essentially zero. But the most astounding thing was that the piston coking was ALSO ZERO.

This seems likely to me @Hohn.

Considering that brazing materials are generally silver, copper-phosphorus, aluminum-silicon, and/or nickel alloys, I find myself pointing to the oil heater/cooler that resides between the engine block and the oil filter.

I say this without direct used oil analysis of my Ram 1500's 5.7-liter Hemi engine, but my brain keeps pushing me to correlate the increased copper to leaching in this oil heater/cooler (Mopar part 68271639AD) with what appears to be brazed connections. This part is rather known for failure and causing the awful mixing of coolant and motor oil. Recommendations abound but this part seems to be recommended for regular periodic (every 75K?) in order to prevent cross contamination disaster.

What I do wonder is what might be causing leaching of copper from this component (if this is indeed a root cause of elevated copper levels in the 5.7 Hemi and possibly the 6.4 Hemi). Thoughts?

 

[Hohn]

This seems likely to me @Hohn.

Considering that brazing materials are generally silver, copper-phosphorus, aluminum-silicon, and/or nickel alloys, I find myself pointing to the oil heater/cooler that resides between the engine block and the oil filter.

I say this without direct used oil analysis of my Ram 1500's 5.7-liter Hemi engine, but my brain keeps pushing me to correlate the increased copper to leaching in this oil heater/cooler (Mopar part 68271639AD) with what appears to be brazed connections. This part is rather known for failure and causing the awful mixing of coolant and motor oil. Recommendations abound but this part seems to be recommended for regular periodic (every 75K?) in order to prevent cross contamination disaster.

What I do wonder is what might be causing leaching of copper from this component (if this is indeed a root cause of elevated copper levels in the 5.7 Hemi and possibly the 6.4 Hemi). Thoughts?

I can only speculate.

All the HPL oils meet 1a on D130, so I don't think the HPL is contributing to this more than any other oils would.

Nor are there any bearing metals, so it's not bearing metal either.

There's not much copper in a modern engine-- on purpose. So it's not too hard to narrow it down to a handful of potential sources, and the lube cooler has to be one of the prime suspects because copper is so common in brazing alloys.

I think it might just be the case that the copper strip corrosion test doesn't really capture the dynamics of what can happen in braze alloys. Copper strip test is just pure copper and just hot (fresh) oil. It's essentially a tarnish test that catches mostly sulfur-related tarnish. What D130 cannot catch:

• Ion exchange (Zinc/copper swapping in ZDDP to make CuDDP).
• copper-catalyzed autooxidation (this is what i think was causing our piston coking). Copper can cataylze hydrocarbon oxidation and make carboxylic acids that further feed copper leaching and more reaction. Given the very robust antioxidants in HPL oil, I find this to be unlikely as a main factor in Hemis
• Large-surface area copper reaction from heat exchangers.
  • Many suppliers like Modine, Senior, etc offer SiO2 coated parts specifically to deter copper reaction with oil. But it costs extra and you have to ask for it. I'm guessing Chrysler being the cheapskates they are, this upgrade was not selected for their lube coolers.

I'm not a fan of copper in oil, but the experience of the long-tenured and oil-knowledgeable members here that Hemis just have high copper and its mostly not a problem is something I would use to justify sort of ignoring it and getting on with life.

 

[Sloppy_Snood]

I'm not a fan of copper in oil, but the experience of the long-tenured and oil-knowledgeable members here that Hemis just have high copper and its mostly not a problem is something I would use to justify sort of ignoring it and getting on with life.

Makes me wonder if there exists an aluminum version (or any other metal/metal alloy not containing copper) of the Mopar part 68271639ADoil heater/cooler. I suppose removing this heat exchanger, adding a new oil filter, and bypassing with hose might resolve whether or not the 68271639AD is to blame (in part or whole).