Read the second sentence in my post here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...6l-hpl-cj-4-5w-20-26-015-miles-on-oil.347523/
HPL Engine Cleaner - 4,430 miles - Toyota 2GR-FE
- Thread starter The Critic
- Start date
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...6l-hpl-cj-4-5w-20-26-015-miles-on-oil.347523/
JHZR2
Staff member
Unfortunately I’m not sure we know what those particles are, their cause, the mechanism of their formation/appearance, or what their presence means…
Maybe Dave @High Performance Lubricants can provide us contact info for a lab that can properly test & quantify the particles, or at least tell us what test would be optimal to identify them? Not sure if WearChek does this or…?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
In my instance, having got them before, they were carbonaceous, and not completely solid; you could break them up rubbing them between your fingers. Having seen similar material in the oil control ring area on a few teardowns, that has always been my suspicion as to where it was being liberated from.
JHZR2
Staff member
So it’s a polymerizing sludge, or at least aggregating fine particles?
So you’re saying it’s essentially sheared, charred VIIs? Making sure I understand this right…
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I wouldn't use the word sludge, which implies there is moisture present. The ring land area, particularly the oil control rings, seems to be an area where the production of this material is more inclined to happen, I assume due to the very low level of oil flow in this area coupled with the conditions. I would consider this some form of resin-coated soot particles:
JHZR2
Staff member
I didn’t say that at all. Why would you read that into what I said?
Polymerization can occur on its own.
I was asking. Just thinking about the little I know about polymerization… figured the most likely culprit would be the VII polymers is all. Sorry, was trying to think this out.
Yep, and most likely a factor why engines that don't use good cleaning oils, and lack getting proper OCI maintenance often get stuck rings in the piston grooves which causea oil consumption to increase.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Bingo.
When I used Mobil 1 in my V6 Nissan Altima, I would see similar "carbonized" debris in the oil filter, mainly after using the car over the winter months in cold weather. Never really saw it after use in summer type weather. Could have been from an increase in engine enrichment during cold starts and warm-up.
Wonder if this is related to some of the hygroscopic compounds in oils that Dave was telling me about today. Could be something to see if he can add more color to this mystery…
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I got it in my Expedition filter when I started running M1 0W-40 in it, which was marketed as actually being able to clean, likely due to the AN's. It was year-round and eventually tapered off after many OCI's.
Although there is not much love for this BG EPR around here, I would run HP EC first, then when time to drain, follow with a treatment of BG EPR .
May need to repeat process a second time.
The piston soak for oil burning never really made sense to me as the oil control rings are the 3rd set of rings and filing the combustion chamber with some liquid, may clean carbon from the piston tops but how much of that liquid will get to the oil control rings? Specially if the compression rings are sealing tight. Cylinders hold over 160+ psi of air pressure, and yet with the gravity alone, it is expected that a ring cleaning liquid will easily pass through them.
I may get flamed for suggesting a flush, but from my limited amt of personal data points. This combination has worked so far. The EC "softens up the material and the BG does the final clean.
I plan on doing this to every 50K as a matenenace precaution, to keep ringlands nice and clean.
It may act like a penetrating oil does, and with enough soak time makes its way to all the rings.
A few carbon particles are the only thing I normally find in filters, although smaller ones than your chunks.
I like your change history format.
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That tears it. Once I confirm fuel issues are OK on the Ford, I'm baselining it to HPL with a quart of the EC. It's seen some already but nothing I can say "At ___,___ mileage I drained the oil and added HPL 0W-30 and HPL EC and changed the filter and changed the filter at ___,___" - I tell you now, I'll set it up for about June or so but that is coming. (The other car, same.)
I wouldn't have expected a Toyota engine to have any type of carbon build up on the rings especially at 5k mile intervals but I suppose it's possible. TGMO does have a good amount of VIIs. M1 EP will keep an engine very clean but it doesn't have the cleaning power of the ESP/0w40 oils which have more group V in them. Being HPL/EC has a good dose of AN/esters and cleans really well, it does appear it was cleaning something. My guess is the rings as others have said.
One thing I forgot to add, Last year prior to running the HP EC, I resealed the oil pan on this vehicle, replaced the timing and balance chains, cam phaser, oil pump solenoid, timing chain guides, oil pump, and valve cover gaskets.
The pan was thoroughly cleaned, there was no sludge in the pan or under the valve covers only varnish staining.
This leads me do believe all this carbon was from the piston area.
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