How many layers

[MGBV8]

On basis that tech info provided by Silkolene is the diester in Silkolene, will the number of layers be the same for other ester oils eg Redline Motul

http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm

and how does this compare to tackifiers in other oils.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by MGBV8:
On basis that tech info provided by Silkolene is the diester in Silkolene, will the number of layers be the same for other ester oils eg Redline Motul

http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip8.htm

and how does this compare to tackifiers in other oils.

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Silkolene's website:

"Electrosyntec molecules behave in this way. When a layer of Electrosyntec molecules is in place, another layer will be attracted to the outer positively charged ends of the first layer of molecules and then another to the exposed negatively charged ends of the second layer and so on, This is electrostatic adhesion and it has been shown that these layers do exist, and that anything from 10 to 50 layers can build up on a metal surface."

An additive website:

http://www.ram-energy.com/energester.htm

"The highly polar ester molecules in Energester are attracted to positively charged metal surfaces thereby creating a film that requires additional energy to penetrate."

A Motul website:

"Thus, there are two types of synthetics, one a petroleum product and the other from vegetables. A synthetic will find a leak A vegetable synthetic has a property we call unctuousness or oiliness.. It is polarized and actually has a negative end chain and iron and steel have a positive end chain. What happens is that the oil is attracted to bare surfaces and is trying to spread to wherever there isn't any oil." (speaking of esters)

From an elementary chemistry text:

"A neutral atom or group of atoms becomes an ion by gaining or losing one or more electrons or protons. Since the electron and proton have equal but opposite unit charges, the charge of an ion is always expressed as a whole number of unit charges and is either positive or negative. A simple ion consists of only one charged atom; a complex ion consists of an aggregate of atoms with a net charge. If an atom or group loses electrons or gains protons, it will have a net positive charge and is called a cation ."

Summing it all up, esters - polyolester or diester - are attracted to the metal parts of the engine.

Esters - polyolester or diester - are commonly added to polyalphaolefin based synthetic motor oils to balance seal swell (solvency). Serendipitously they increase film strength and provide a polar attraction to metal surfaces. Silkolene and Redline contain esters. So does Mobil 1, which is why you find Mobil 1 "climbing the dipstick".

So do several other past and present polyalphaolefin-based synthetics and some Group III "synthetic" motor oils.

 

[buster]

Molekule has stated repeatedly that this is why Redline shows higher wear metals sometimes. Redline has a much higher % of Ester and it will displace or scavenge metals inside the engine.

 

[MolaKule]

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and how does this compare to tackifiers in other oils.

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Tackifiers are used to impart a cling or stickiness to some lubricants, such as WAY oils and greases.

Tackifiers are most generally made of specialized and synthesized hydrocarbons.

The two topics are mutually exclusive, I.E. you can't compare an ester with a tackifier; two different chemicals for two different purposes.

 

[TallPaul]

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Originally posted by buster:
... it will displace or scavenge metals inside the engine.

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What exactly does this mean? What metals? Wear debris that is clinging inside the engine? Metals from the oil formulation? Actual metal off the good parts of the block? A combination of these?

 

[Terry]

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So the million dollar question is whether or not most of us are wasting our money with UOA's if the analysis is revealing the entire picture in terms of wear metals.

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Buster, valid question.

SAE Tech paper series 981078 by Nelson and Finch 1998, states; "Spectrographic oil analysis technology has for the first time been introduced as a key engineering tool during the developmental
phase for automotive engines and drive train systems." Pg1 first paragraph.

If Chrysler and RAETECH were developing onsite oil analysis for engine and drivetrain development in 1998 with accurate,time saving, and by extention cost saving results,rest assured a racing engine development team could use good old centralized lab analysis to do the same YEARS before this paper was published.

Same idea I have attempted to introduce here to the masses.

It is accurate but as a science it has a weak point in that interpretation is so variable due to the nature of automotive use in the field and experience of the analyst. Test stands and dyno pulls are easier to interpret because most of the mettalurgy ,lubricants are known and controlled.

This paper is old news and was used to prove the onsite analysis machines developed by a oil analysis machine company. The papers premise is confirming in 1998 what I tell you guys,the run of mill resaonably accurate oil analysyis result is plenty accurate IF interpreted properly.

When you can get a very accurate response from Blackstone Labs, one of BITOG sponsors,in a few days or less of pulling the sample the cost of the analysis is even more valuable.

I do suggest using a good analyst whatever lab you decide on ! Suggestions in the BITOG site supporter section.

 

[buster]

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with UOA's if the analysis is revealing the entire picture in terms of wear metals.

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Thanks Terry for the info.

My question is more directed towards oils like RL vs more PAO based oils.

 

[buster]

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What exactly does this mean? What metals? Wear debris that is clinging inside the engine? Metals from the oil formulation? Actual metal off the good parts of the block? A combination of these?

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Basically wear debris. It's just a theory. But again, other ester based oils don't show this characteristic. It's an interesting idea though. So the million dollar question is whether or not most of us are wasting our money with UOA's if the analysis is revealing the entire picture in terms of wear metals.

 

[yannis]

http://www.silkoleneoil.com/techtip4.htm

3) Synthetic Hydrocarbons or PAO's (Poly Alpha Olefins)
These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless 'boundary' lubricants, with less load carrying ability than mineral oil. .They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.

In fact PAOs work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAOs act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and anti-oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Originally posted by yannis:
The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless 'boundary' lubricants, with less load carrying ability than mineral oil.

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But add a bit of ester, either diester or polyolester, to a PAO, and it begins to act like the ester. As with tetraethyl lead added to gasoline, the first bit does the most good. With relatively modest amounts of an ester, you have a lubricant that under the kinds of loads in the engines we're interested does about the same job as an ester and for less money.

And the PAO has its own advantages over esters.

 

[Terry]

Mickey_M states:

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And the PAO has its own advantages over esters.

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I surmise it is mostly lower cost.

And ;

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begins to act like the ester.

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Define Act ?

Another way to cut costs and gain short term efficiencies in non extreme application lubricants while staying profitable ?

Terry

 

[labman]

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Originally posted by Mickey_M:
snip...
"A neutral atom or group of atoms becomes an ion by gaining or losing one or more electrons or protons. Since the electron and proton have equal but opposite unit charges, the charge of an ion is always expressed as a whole number of unit charges and is either positive or negative. A simple ion consists of only one charged atom; a complex ion consists of an aggregate of atoms with a net charge. If an atom or group loses electrons or gains protons, it will have a net positive charge and is called a cation ."
snip...

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Esters do not gain or lose electrons to become ions. They do have dipole moments, the shared electrons are disproportionally concentrated at the oxygen atoms and shortages in the carbon chains. Thus they can sort of stick to metals. The differently charged areas can also stick together. The increase in viscosity due to that is less affected by temperature change than viscosity due to strictly chain length. Thus better VI. They are also better solvents for other polar materials.

PAO's are paraffins, the same as dino, except they are branched. Branched paraffins are less stable and less viscous than straight chain, normal, paraffins of the same molecular weight. Their viscosity also does not rise as rapidly with falling temperatures. Again, an inherently better VI. Apparently the loss of stability is minor or compensated for by additives. It comes from the hydrogen attached to the same carbon as a side chain being slightly more positive than the rest of the hydrogens. This same factor is present in isooctane, allowing part of the charge to start burning sooner and avoiding the sudden pressure rise that causes knock. This very slight positive charge has little effect on solubility or clinging to polar materials.

I wonder how much ester it takes to have as many layers as will build up on them on all the surfaces in the engine? Maybe a little ester goes a long ways. Maybe blending isn't a crazy as it seems. Maybe better dinos come from the refinery with enough already added? Anybody have good answers?

 

[MGBV8]

Labman

per a previous thread

My question is what % of ester is required to provide added protection as esters are expensive.

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Depending on the type of ester, 10% to 30% minimum.

Silkolene contains a good 20% diester.

The only Dino I am aware of with esters is Castrol Start Up, and I thought the Tackifiers in dino may help in preventing drain back.

My question was whether all esters in right quantity provide similar number of layers protection, or would say Redline or Motul provide added protection. I also assume bonding strength shows in HTHS.

The other question is once esters are added do they require topping up each oil change for this protection for cold starts, although again I assume you will lose benefit from high HTHS.

The third question is is an oil containing esters the best oil to use for storing cars if relying solely on oil to provide protection.

 

[Patman]

Ogres have layers.


I've been dying to say that ever since this thread started. Anyone who has kids and has watched the movie Shrek will laugh at that sentence.

Sorry for the interruption, please continue.