How hot is too hot for motor oil

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100 deg ambient day,

Good advice - No payments on this one. Never finance fun. Technically speaking, this is not a race. It is a timed event on a public street, not wheel to wheel competition on a race track. But believe me, I understand the insurance co lawyers would find some fine print somewhere.
The defenition is "organized racing event" it doesnt matter if its against the clock or another car, this includes auto cross hill climbs etc. It doesn't have to be on a closed course either.
 
Oops, I thought we're talking some higher elevation. I'm astonished it gets that hot at just 3200 ft.
It will. While 3,200ft is not a dramatic altitude, you are already looking 9-10% loss in power in a naturally aspirated engine. That tells you that there is already a substantial impact of altitude. Above 4,000ft is when things start to get more serious.
I personally do not see the issue of temperatures being 252f if using heavier oil like 5W30 C3 or A3. But, he needs to keep coolant in check as during run up timing could be pulled back a bit. In BMW N52 engine at least before total limp mode (128c coolant, 143c oil) timing is already pulled back when oil reaches 133c and coolant 122c. That could affect his performance and with that time. I think lowering coolant concentration in favor of water and running heat would keep him safe.
 
No,
252 degrees is fine, not worth thinking about. Most people don’t know about oil temperatures because they don’t have gauges in their cars,
If you start pushing 270 degrees then you may have to do something about it.
252 is within an expected operating range

No offense intended, but did you consider reading this thread before typing your answer?


It will. While 3,200ft is not a dramatic altitude, you are already looking 9-10% loss in power in a naturally aspirated engine. That tells you that there is already a substantial impact of altitude. Above 4,000ft is when things start to get more serious.

For sure, I'm aware. Even above 4.000 ft and at 104°F ouside I didn't experience
oil temps above 113°C (235°F) so far. Guess I just wasn't quick enough. Public
roads of course.


I personally do not see the issue of temperatures being 252f if using heavier oil like 5W30 C3 or A3. But, he needs to keep coolant in check as during run up timing could be pulled back a bit. In BMW N52 engine at least before total limp mode (128c coolant, 143c oil) timing is already pulled back when oil reaches 133c and coolant 122c. That could affect his performance and with that time. I think lowering coolant concentration in favor of water and running heat would keep him safe.

I agree on that. That's why I don't think hardware mods are required or even suitable.
I'm still rather certain the OP should be fine with both coolant mixture and oil weight
adapted to the prevailing conditions. Oil temp hopefully won't exceed 115°C with the
new coolant mix. M1 ESP 5W-30 will easily handle that. While cooler is still better with
regard to performance, the focus should remain on engine wear protection and that's
likely solved with these two measures. Next thing to debate imho should be gear oil
and Haldex oil if this GTI has the Borg-Warner FXD/VAQ diff.
 
No offense intended, but did you consider reading this thread before typing your answer?




For sure, I'm aware. Even above 4.000 ft and at 104°F ouside I didn't experience
oil temps above 113°C (235°F) so far. Guess I just wasn't quick enough. Public
roads of course.




I agree on that. That's why I don't think hardware mods are required or even suitable.
I'm still rather certain the OP should be fine with both coolant mixture and oil weight
adapted to the prevailing conditions. Oil temp hopefully won't exceed 115°C with the
new coolant mix. M1 ESP 5W-30 will easily handle that. While cooler is still better with
regard to performance, the focus should remain on engine wear protection and that's
likely solved with these two measures. Next thing to debate imho should be gear oil
and Haldex oil if this GTI has the Borg-Warner FXD/VAQ diff.
I would go Motul for haldex. Gear? I didn’t catch, manual? Idk what goes now in GTI, but I am super impressed with Redline in my BMW, and I run D4.
 
I would go Motul for haldex. Gear? I didn’t catch, manual? Idk what goes now in GTI, but I am super impressed with Redline in my BMW, and I run D4.

Yes, OP said manual. I'd recommend what I use - Castrol Syntrans V-FE 75W-80,
which is sold as Castrol Transmax Manual V 75W-80 on some markets. At least to
me they both seem the same. It's just a tad thicker as the factory fill VW G 052 527.
8 cSt instead of just 6 cSt, pourpoint -60°C, SDS suggests majority PAO. There are
some VOAs available. Like most of the time there are alternatives. Just make sure
it's GL-4 and not too thick.
VAQ/Haldex (for those who don't know - it's the exact same multi-plate clutch unit)
- just some time ago I would have said just stay with OE VW/Haldex fluid. Today I'd
suggest this though, as on paper at least it looks superior and it's also far cheaper:

https://www.ravenol.de/en/oilltest/oil-test-analyse-awd-h-fluid/

Volkswagen recommends 36 months regardless of miles, which is highly insufficient
when running the car at autocross and on hill climbs where the diff is used hard to
a large extend. I use to change VAQ/Haldex fluid every two years/15kmls and would
highly recommend the OP should swap it every year/10k at the very least.
 
Yes, OP said manual. I'd recommend what I use - Castrol Syntrans V-FE 75W-80,
which is sold as Castrol Transmax Manual V 75W-80 on some markets. At least to
me they both seem the same. It's just a tad thicker as the factory fill VW G 052 527.
8 cSt instead of just 6 cSt, pourpoint -60°C, SDS suggests majority PAO. There are
some VOAs available. Like most of the time there are alternatives. Just make sure
it's GL-4 and not too thick.
VAQ/Haldex (for those who don't know - it's the exact same multi-plate clutch unit)
- just some time ago I would have said just stay with OE VW/Haldex fluid. Today I'd
suggest this though, as on paper at least it looks superior and it's also far cheaper:

https://www.ravenol.de/en/oilltest/oil-test-analyse-awd-h-fluid/

Volkswagen recommends 36 months regardless of miles, which is highly insufficient
when running the car at autocross and on hill climbs where the diff is used hard to
a large extend. I use to change VAQ/Haldex fluid every two years/15kmls and would
highly recommend the OP should swap it every year/10k at the very least.
OK, I have not seen that analysis by Ravenol. Geez.
 
So I compete in hillclimb events in my 2019 VW GTI. I am running a VW 508 compliant 0W-20 oil (Total Quartz) to comply with warranty requirements. During today's event oil temps were at 252F at the finish line. It gradually cools to 235F or so while idling waiting to run back down the hill. The oil has about 2500 miles on it. Anything to worry about here?
There was a GM powertrain engineer on this forum a while back. He opined 310 oil temp was the upper limit for conventual oil. Above that, synthetic.
 
At 310°F = 154°C (oil sump temp) this engine is in limp mode long since. That's for a reason, since cylinder head and coolant temps will also be excessive when oil temp is. There's a common misconception - No, it isn't just a question of what the oil can take!
 
Ok, I will rain on this decision.
you are competing, forget C3 oils. You want as much ZDDP here as possible. High-SAPS oils are way to go: VW502.00, Porsche A40.
But even that on a side, I personally would run track specific oil. I mean you are doing 250 events a year? Street oil doesn’t have role there. You want specific oils that have a lot of esters to provide lower KV100 but still very robust HTHS and in case that fails, lots of ZDDP as last line of defense.
IMO, Motul 300V, Mobil1 Racing, Redline 5W30 or 5W40.
In case this is expensive, Castrol 0W40, Mobil1 0W40 or 5W40FS.
You're best bet is to listen to this guy ^^^^^

What you're doing to this car with a 20wt CAFE oil in the sump is ridiculous. Put a real oil in that car ASAP or I'd be selling it to start over cause you won't see 50k miles at your current choices.
 
At 310°F = 154°C (oil sump temp) this engine is in limp mode long since. That's for a reason, since cylinder head and coolant temps will also be excessive when oil temp is. There's a common misconception - No, it isn't just a question of what the oil can take!
Besides the oil can't take it very long... oxidation and thermal degradation will be astronomical, reducing the oil service interval severely. Especially for mineral oil.
 
You're best bet is to listen to this guy ^^^^^

What you're doing to this car with a 20wt CAFE oil in the sump is ridiculous. Put a real oil in that car ASAP or I'd be selling it to start over cause you won't see 50k miles at your current choices.
The oil has been replaced with M1 ESP 5W-30, and a sample of the 0W-20 sent yesterday to Blackstone.
 
Of course yes, any PCMO will degrade quicker when run near 150°C/300°F for extended periods of time. Oil probably feels most comfortable when run between 100 and 120°C most of the time, so that fuel and water can evaporate quite quick and thermal degradation still isn't an issue.


You're best bet is to listen to this guy ^^^^^
What you're doing to this car with a 20wt CAFE oil in the sump is ridiculous. Put a real oil in that car ASAP or I'd be selling it to start over cause you won't see 50k miles at your current choices.

While 5W-40 should still be ok in case of this engine (I ran Ravenol RUP 5W-40 for ~6.000 km on my own Mk7.5 GTI), overdoing can or even will be counter-productive. These EA888 3G engines do come with a variable flow oil pump and run at regulated oil pressure depending on load and rev. When using a thicker oil oil flow will be less to obtain the defined oil pressure target. You don't want less flow when competing though. That said, I noticed my engine at least felt less vigorous with the 5W-40 oil compared to the 0W-30 before. I ended up using 5W-30 and never looked back.

.
 
If I were tracking or hillclimbing or anything like that I’d use what Redline recommends. But maybe that’s just me.

The Blackstone analysis you mentioned isn’t likely to tell you much either.
 
At 310°F = 154°C (oil sump temp) this engine is in limp mode long since. That's for a reason, since cylinder head and coolant temps will also be excessive when oil temp is. There's a common misconception - No, it isn't just a question of what the oil can take!
Thank you.
True- but the original question was- "how hot is too hot for oil"?
 
So I compete in hillclimb events in my 2019 VW GTI. I am running a VW 508 compliant 0W-20 oil (Total Quartz) to comply with warranty requirements. During today's event oil temps were at 252F at the finish line. It gradually cools to 235F or so while idling waiting to run back down the hill. The oil has about 2500 miles on it. Anything to worry about here?
hillclimb events technically voids the warranty. There is language in the warranty booklet that states something like competition events will void the warranty.

Anyway, if in doubt about the oil condition, pull a sample and send it in for UOA and compare to the VOA.

Since you voided your warranty already with the competition events,

I would look at Amsoil Signature Series oil, whether it's 0w20 (to keep the oil pump happy) or 0w40 for the Group IV/V blend with a robust additive package that is LPSI friendly (plenty of Magnesium) with stout amounts of Moly and Boron.
 
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