How hot is too hot for motor oil

So far hundreds of thousands VWs and Audis are running on VW 508 00 0W-20 with low wear as proven in dozens of UOAs. So there's no general issue with engines that are made to run with this kind of oil. Millions of cars of several makes worldwide are running on 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils for two decades - very most of them again with good results. So again, there is no issue in general at all.
The OP's GTI is a different case, since he's doing hill climbs in high elevation and at elevated temps. However answers are given.
 
So far hundreds of thousands VWs and Audis are running on VW 508 00 0W-20 with low wear as proven in dozens of UOAs. So there's no general issue with engines that are made to run with this kind of oil. Millions of cars of several makes worldwide are running on 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils for two decades - very most of them again with good results. So again, there is no issue in general at all.
The OP's GTI is a different case, since he's doing hill climbs in high elevation and at elevated temps. However answers are given.
Is that why VW introduced 511.00 and C40? Bcs. 0W20 cover everything really good?
Which two decades? 17 years ago I was working on oil testing to be submitted for VW approvals and cannot remember anything VW 0W20 or 5W20.
 
Is that why VW introduced 511.00 and C40? Bcs. 0W20 cover everything really good?
Which two decades? 17 years ago I was working on oil testing to be submitted for VW approvals and cannot remember anything VW 0W20 or 5W20.
To be fair , my dad bought 20 cases of castrol gtx 5w20 for his 1996 or 1997 volkswagen gli, and used it since brand new, and it still worked, even had the same compression as factory compression, but BEFORE he moved down south.

After that, well after a couple years of running 5w20 in the heat, the engine lost decent compression and also loud piston slap and a whole variety of other problems including super loud lifters and crankshaft noises.
 
Is that why VW introduced 511.00 and C40? Bcs. 0W20 cover everything really good?
Which two decades? 17 years ago I was working on oil testing to be submitted for VW approvals and cannot remember anything VW 0W20 or 5W20.

He meant cars in general for the second part (he said of several makes) which is true, 20 grade has been in use for about two decades with Ford and Japanese stuff.

I think most of us agree just for driving around the 20 grade is totally suitable, but not for extended track driving.
 
Is that why VW introduced 511.00 and C40? Bcs. 0W20 cover everything really good?
Which two decades? 17 years ago I was working on oil testing to be submitted for VW approvals and cannot remember anything VW 0W20 or 5W20.

I said "two decades" along with "several makes". VW/Audi started using VW 508 00/0W-20 in 2016 as far as I know. The first EA888 using VW 508 00 has been the "Miller cycle" 190 PS 2.0 TFSI Audi A4 released in 2016 on European markets. My own GTI 7.5 (built in June 2017) still came with VW 504 00 from factory and VW 504 00 / 502 00 approvals only according to the manual.
Both VW 511 00 and Porsche C40 approvals exclusively apply to very few engines, e.g. 4.0 V8 Turbos. As I mentioned on this forum several times, I regret VW doesn't allow using VW 511 00 commonly on 2.0 TFSI engines. I wish they did, as I'm convinced it would perform flawlessly.
Remember I did recommend running either 5W-30 or 5W-40 in case of the OP, so I certainly did not recommend staying with VW 508 00/0W-20. However, to be fair, I felt I need to say VW 508 00/0W-20 isn't a bad thing in general.
Edy, I do agree with you quite often or even most of the time, though I noticed I don't agree with you on some points in this discussion.
 
I said "two decades" along with "several makes". VW/Audi started using VW 508 00/0W-20 in 2016 as far as I know. The first EA888 using VW 508 00 has been the "Miller cycle" 190 PS 2.0 TFSI Audi A4 released in 2016 on European markets. My own GTI 7.5 (built in June 2017) still came with VW 504 00 from factory and VW 504 00 / 502 00 approvals only according to the manual.
Both VW 511 00 and Porsche C40 approvals exclusively apply to very few engines, e.g. 4.0 V8 Turbos. As I mentioned on this forum several times, I regret VW doesn't allow using VW 511 00 commonly on 2.0 TFSI engines. I wish they did, as I'm convinced it would perform flawlessly.
Remember I did recommend running either 5W-30 or 5W-40 in case of the OP, so I certainly did not recommend staying with VW 508 00/0W-20. However, to be fair, I felt I need to say VW 508 00/0W-20 isn't a bad thing in general.
Edy, I do agree with you quite often or even most of the time, though I noticed I don't agree with you on some points in this discussion.
VW doesn’t allow bcs. consumption. In addition VW is very confusing unlike MB that clearly states what allowed approvals serve for.
 
He meant cars in general for the second part (he said of several makes) which is true, 20 grade has been in use for about two decades with Ford and Japanese stuff.

I think most of us agree just for driving around the 20 grade is totally suitable, but not for extended track driving.
Sure, but if you look closely you will see that these companies recommend oils based on the market and how emissions are calculated.
Lexus 2GR-FKS: 0W20
In EU: C3.
 
lots of suggestions + you dont whats happening inside your engine UNTIL its too late!! savagegeese.com notes using higher viscosity depending on heat, so you need an oil temp gauge. ALL oils thin as they get hotter even ESTER oils said to tolerate heat the best, its your 10 thousand or so engine, if you want to play you gotta pay that means prepping your car for what you do, it may cost a bit but sooner or later using it as you do will take its toll, pay me now or pay me more later fits your situation, enjoy your activity + be safe!!
 
The OP's Mk7 GTI has an oil temp gauge.


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I noticed there's a minor deviation from OBD data, but it's just 2°C off and that's negligible.

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For reference, oil temps are normally around 212-215F driving on the freeway in ambient temps of 80F.
Coming off a typical 45sec autocross run, it might be in the 225-230F range.
Sitting in grid this weekend, ambient temps were 100F and oil temp was 217-219F. Coming off the 1:45 hill climb run, oil temps were 252F, slowing cooling to 235F sitting in the finish area, and eventually back down to the 219F area after returning down the hill and regridding.
 
So I compete in hillclimb events in my 2019 VW GTI. I am running a VW 508 compliant 0W-20 oil (Total Quartz) to comply with warranty requirements.
You are already not complying with warranty requirements. Warranty is not for cars driven in sport events.
Sprited or high performance driving is not easily identified unless there is a money shift or other signs of abuse like a nuked clutch.
You think that mechanics are that easy to fool? Is one to have a spirited diving on pavement, other to do it in autocross competition.
Coming off the 1:45 hill climb run, oil temps were 252F,
You need to add an additional cooler. Sure that will probably affect warranty, but what do you want? A car that lasts longer and have fun driving it?
Or a car that will die just outside the warranty period?
Because that 250F won't kill in during warranty.
 
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For reference, oil temps are normally around 212-215F driving on the freeway in ambient temps of 80F.
Coming off a typical 45sec autocross run, it might be in the 225-230F range.
Sitting in grid this weekend, ambient temps were 100F and oil temp was 217-219F. Coming off the 1:45 hill climb run, oil temps were 252F, slowing cooling to 235F sitting in the finish area, and eventually back down to the 219F area after returning down the hill and regridding.
Run heat at full blow! That is what I do on track or if climbing Pikes Peak.
But again, bigger cooler and oil cooler.
https://csfrace.com/product/volkswagen-racing-radiators/
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https://www.racingline.com/oilcooler
 
If I understand this correctly, you could be running near or at full power for 2 minutes at comparatively low speeds. That's well beyond what this engine was designed to do.

Many automotive engines pressed into aviation use fail catastrophically in short order if more viscous oils are not used.

Also, 0W-anything is probably too thin for real world protection under those temps. I'd suggest an HTHS of 3.8 with those temps. That will likely require a stable oil that is shear resistant and a 5W-something.
 
If I understand this correctly, you could be running near or at full power for 2 minutes at comparatively low speeds. That's well beyond what this engine was designed to do.

Many automotive engines pressed into aviation use fail catastrophically in short order if more viscous oils are not used.

Also, 0W-anything is probably too thin for real world protection under those temps. I'd suggest an HTHS of 3.8 with those temps. That will likely require a stable oil that is shear resistant and a 5W-something.
Mobil1 5W40 FS is I think 3.8. He can go that. Motul 5W40 Sport which is API SN so it has oxidation somewhat in check is HTHS 4.1.
But, again, better cooling is first step IMO.
 
Oil cooler would be better for comfort sake, its rather op get an oil cooler, because there's a likely chance nothing will fail during warranty.
A stout 10w30 is still valid for less parasitic loss and good protection
 
Oil cooler would be better for comfort sake, its rather op get an oil cooler, because there's a likely chance nothing will fail during warranty.
A stout 10w30 is still valid for less parasitic loss and good protection
Probably. He can go first oil cooler route. I did not go larger, more efficient coolant radiator as mine is a naturally aspirated engine and stick shift. Upgraded CSF radiators on BMW's are a must on turbo engines with automatic or dual clutch. But in NA engines like N52 with a stick can be too much during winter. Oil cooler resolved my issues easily. So, an oil cooler might be enough without compromising winter performance.
 
The car comes with a built in lap timer, so it's not like VW didn't think that people will track these things. Although I am sure that there is plenty of fine print to cover all possibilities.

Would 0W-40 Porsche C40 or 5W-30 C30 oil, for instance the Mobil 1 0W-40 Euro oil or 5W-30 ESP oil be good choices? How about mixing 50/50 with the 508 0W-20 and C40 0W-40?
I wouldn't bother mixing but a good 0W-40 like Castrol or sure, M1 ESP 0W-30 or 5W-30, would 1. be good for your engine and 2. give you more confidence while beating on it and 3. not hurt the engine in any way.
 
Some interesting discussion here. I was going to keep quiet, maybe I still should...
I don't have a ton of VW experience. I do have some experience with BMW and temperature management with N55 engines and associated ECUs, and a lot of anecdotal things I've heard in BMW circles.

1/ In BMW circles with N54 and N55 engine variants with no oil coolers, some folks have tried to respond to high oil temps by increasing viscosity/HTHS. This made oil temps even higher (now you have drag on heavier oils to add to the mix). This could happen to this GTI. The only way to know is to try. Higher HTHS oil may increase engine protection but will do nothing for the temperatures.

2/ My particular N55 has an oil/coolant heat exchanger (oil/air is an option on "sport" and "high speed" variants). I didn't know what this GTI has but some posts here seem to have filled in that it is equipped similarly. As mentioned by someone, BMW has a number of cooling strategy targets depending on operating conditions. My tune (MHD) allows me to override and pick different cooling strategies depending on a few factors, primarily to bring temps down in more conditions by choice of the driver. I *assume* that VW has different cooling targets and, when driven aggressively, is the target coolant temp reduced? I know that there is talk of warranty so a tune is probably out of the question, but I am curious what programming VW has and if there are any options for the owner to reduce the targets. One mode offered by my tune is a "pre-cool" mode, where the target is set extra low (in the 80s C) to set while idling prior to beginning a "run". Something like that could be valuable to the owner. The different cooling targets are built into the factory ECU code, but selecting their use at different times is the function added by the tune.

3/ During or at the completion of a run, what are the coolant target, coolant temp and oil temp relative to one another? There's a screenshot in the thread which shows coolant at 100C and oil at 232F in the same shot. I'm not sure if this is the car in question. There are suggestions to lower the concentration of coolant and run the heat full blast. These will increase cooling system heat capacity and shed more heat (respectively), but...

a/ if 100C is the coolant target temp, then the system is keeping up with demand. Running the heat might not do a thing, though does technically shed more heat. If 100C is the target, the rest of the system will just work less hard to shed heat while the driver cooks.

b/ if the coolant is 100C while the oil is significantly hotter, then an issue is transferring heat from oil to coolant fast enough. Things that could help -- cooler coolant, more oil or coolant flow in the exchanger, larger heat exchanger. My oil/coolant heat exchanger is only about the size of my fist. I don't know that either altering the mixture or running the heat would affect the transfer of heat from oil to coolant.

A thermostatically controlled oil/air heat exchanger mounted where there is good airflow would be my vote on the "right" way to solve the problem, but I think others have already concluded this :) I wonder if the owner can source genuine VW parts for other models (like the R) to retrofit the feature to their car while maximizing the chances of preserving warranty.
 
As mentioned by someone, BMW has a number of cooling strategy targets depending on operating conditions. My tune (MHD) allows me to override and pick different cooling strategies depending on a few factors, primarily to bring temps down in more conditions by choice of the driver. I *assume* that VW has different cooling targets and, when driven aggressively, is the target coolant temp reduced? I know that there is talk of warranty so a tune is probably out of the question, but I am curious what programming VW has and if there are any options for the owner to reduce the targets. One mode offered by my tune is a "pre-cool" mode, where the target is set extra low (in the 80s C) to set while idling prior to beginning a "run". Something like that could be valuable to the owner. The different cooling targets are built into the factory ECU code, but selecting their use at different times is the function added by the tune.

Yes, of course, it's more or less the same on the GTI. Target temperature (for both coolant and oil? not sure, though I do reach 110°C on hot summer days) when cruising is somewhere at 110°C (which obviously the engine won't reach in the colder season), while target temp at full load is somewhere at or slightly above 80°C (which again obviously it'll never reach even in winter). These targets can be altered via some aftermarket software, giving some additional margin and the engine will reach elevated temps (e.g. 122°C oil like the OP) somewhat later. However, I'd guess it's just a shorter time span, two minutes or so, until it's at the same elevated level. I doubt this is a full substitute for additional cooling capacity.

I still would do both coolant mix (as it's almost for free) and 5W-30/504 00 first (he'd want to change oil soon anyway).

You're right btw., thicker oil will increase drag and thus increase temps by itself. One more reason not to overdo. On a side note, coolant on the GTI is near 10 liters, if I'm not wrong, and engine oil capacity is 6.6 liters total, while oil change volume is 5.7 l (almost one liter is remaining somewhere in the pan), which isn't skimpily for a 2.0 4-pot. Manual gearbox is 2.3 liter.
There's no bigger OE replacement oil/coolant heat exchanger I'm aware of, but there may exist one perhaps. I'd do a research and look for TiguanR/Atlas/MultivanT5/T6/RS3/TT-RS components first. However there does exist a bigger oil/coolant heat exchanger for the DSG gearbox. That said, I mentioned the additional/auxialiary radiators most Golf R, Audi S3, TTS, TT-RS, RS3, Tiguan R and some Arteon come with. Since Audi and VW went this way, I'm fairly certain it's the best way, even though not the cheapest.
 
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