How hot is too hot for motor oil

[Jimmy_Russells]

5w30 ESP will do just fine

 

[edyvw]

250 runs, not 250 events. A run is anywhere from 40 seconds - 2 minutes.

Ok, you want less parasitic drag but stout oil.
IMO, I would run Motul 5W30 300V.
if you want regular oil then Castrol Edge 0W30. It is available on Amazon but it goes around $50 for 6qt. Check local Advance Auto Parts. They sometimes carry it at $33 for 5qt plus filter. I found it here in local AAP on sale few months ago.

 

[edyvw]

While an oil temp of 235°F = 113°C is pretty normal for this kind of engine, 252°F = 122°C certainly isn't.
That's pretty close to where the ECU will start to cut some power and that's for a reason (it's somewhere
in the 120s°C I'm pretty sure). Oil temps that high along with high revs will likely affect the engine's life
expectancy in some way. So yes, that's a reason I'd worry about. As a consequence two things are required:

- bring down the temperatures >> alter coolant mix ratio >> use 35 % anti-freeze & 65 % distilled water
- change both engine and gear oil >> use a more stout engine oil (VW 504 00 5W-30 or VW 511 00 5W-40)

Use either VW G13 or G12evo and distilled water only:

35 % anti-freeze & 65 % distilled water >> -20°C frost protection
40 % anti-freeze & 60 % distilled water >> -25°C frost protection

If required change coolant before and after winter. In any case change coolant frequently (3 - 5 years)
if you run a reduced anti-freeze content since anti-freeze also provides corrosion protection and less
anti-freeze won't provide sufficient corrosion protection that long as 50/50 mix would.

Btw., is your GTI stock? Is it DSG or manual? The very first and preferably very early gear oil change is
the most important one, no matter if you have a manual or a DSG transmission.





While more frequent oil changes are a good thing, they won't help much in this case.
I think oil oxidation and wear metals are not the issue here, it's MOFT and temperature.





This isn't a race car, it isn't even a track day car. VW never made any recommendations for this duty.





This lap timer is a gimmick without any meaning.





Yes, both Porsche C30 5W-30 (equivalent to VW 504 00) and Porsche C40 5W-40 (VW 511 00) are
excellent choices and by far better suited for this purpose. I'd recommend two oils in particular:

- Mobil1 ESP 5W-30 (VW 504 00, MB 229.51, 229.52, Porsche C30)
- Ravenol RUP 5W-40 (VW 511 00, BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, Porsche A40, not C40)

Please don't mix different grades, there's no need to. Choose between either 5W-30 or 5W-40 or
use one in the winter and one in the summer season. I'd suggest to start with the reduced anti-
freeze and 5W-30 VW 504 00/Porsche C30 oil and see what oil temps you get with this. They'll be
lower, that's quite certain. If it isn't sufficient you could try 5W-40 VW 511 00/Porsche A40/C40
next. Mentioned approvals are very demanding resulting in stout oils. Of course there are other
oils out there meeting the same approvals, however that's what I would run in your case. Mobil1
and Ravenol's racing line are both very high quality and come along with reputable approvals.

I agree on very most posts made in this discussion. It's more important to protect the engine and
to avoid engine defects over warranty concerns since racing it already voids the warranty. I'm sorry
to say that, but if you really neet to retain your warranty you'd need to stop racing.

.

122c is ok and normal for motor oil and an engine. He might see timing pull back around 130-135c and complete limp mode above 140c. For a good oil that is not an issue. I pushed my BMW to 149c when limp mode kicks in.
But, IMO key to prevent anything to go bad is larger coolant radiator (OP, check CSF) and moving from fluid/fluid heat exchanger to air/fluid oil cooler (radiator). Maybe larger coolant radiator could cut it. I would go first larger coolant radiator and see where things stand.

 

[edyvw]

5w30 ESP will do just fine

It will. But for this purpose, IMO track specific oils will do better job.

 

[RooflessVW]

It will. But for this purpose, IMO track specific oils will do better job.

Does the 911 have a GPF in Europe? If so than a C30 should be up to track duty.

 

[edyvw]

Does the 911 have a GPF in Europe? If so than a C30 should be up to track duty.

Or C40. I mean for vehicles that see track once a month, sure. But, here we are talking competition vehicle. Is competing Porsche going to have GPF in the first place? It is huge restriction.

 

[930.engineering]

Yes, it does.

122°C isn't normal. At 35°C and full throttle Autobahn my GTI doesn't exceed 113°C on 5W-30 C3 oil. Same on the Nordschleife on a hot day.
His 2019 is specced for 0W-20. Going one step thicker ALONG with improved cooling (35/65 mix) should give a noticeable improvement.

IF he thinks he'd need an even more stout oil than M1 ESP 5W-30, then I'd go Ravenol REP 5W-30. This is also C3 and comes with MB229.51 and BMW LL-04 approvals. Exceptional pourpoint, flashpoint, Noack (6 %) and HTHS of 3,7.
IF he should see any need for a really stout 5W-40 I'd consider Ravenol RCS. I use it in my old 930 Turbo.

 

[RooflessVW]

Or C40. I mean for vehicles that see track once a month, sure. But, here we are talking competition vehicle. Is competing Porsche going to have GPF in the first place? It is huge restriction.

I think you could throw a stock Carrera around Hockenheim pretty good. GPF or not.

I would have no hesitation using a 504/507/C30 in place of a 508/509 oil for track conditions. What is really to be gained by going to a 502/505/A40 oil? more Z&P?

 

[Davejam]

His 2019 is specced for 0W-20. Going one step thicker ALONG with improved cooling (35/65 mix) should give a noticeable improvement.

IF he thinks he'd need an even more stout oil than M1 ESP 5W-30, then I'd go Ravenol REP 5W-30. This is also C3 and comes with MB229.51 and BMW LL-04 approvals. Exceptional pourpoint, flashpoint, Noack (6 %) and HTHS of 3,7.
IF he should see any need for a really stout 5W-40 I'd consider Ravenol RCS. I use it in my old 930 Turbo.

+1

You could consider lower coolant ratio, you could run 35/65 all day long in most warm weather climates, probably wouldn't suit you in winter in Idaho.
For racing you could push it lower to pretty much zero, but should run 10/90 or 20/80 just to get the benefit of anticorrosion/etc from coolant.
Water has better heat transfer properties on its own but naturally lacks additives for corrosion/freeze protection.
Might also check that your radiator is clean.

Depending on how long you run in race conditions you should consider changing oil after every event. And naturally check your coolant levels.

5W-30 is prefferred over 0W-30.

 

[tom in boise]

I appreciate the great conversation on this. I intend to send in an oil sample from the 0W-20 that's in there right now when I dump it next week, and will again with the M1 ESP 5W-30. That will likely be in the late August time frame, with 4 events (~50 runs) on it.

 

[edyvw]

I think you could throw a stock Carrera around Hockenheim pretty good. GPF or not.

I would have no hesitation using a 504/507/C30 in place of a 508/509 oil for track conditions. What is really to be gained by going to a 502/505/A40 oil? more Z&P?

More ZDDP. Some track oils are at 1300ppm for a reason (Mobil1 15W50). A40 like M1 0W40 are around 1100ppm.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Yes but track oils aren't really meant to be used long term and use additives that really need a good amount of heat to become fully active. When I think of track oils I think of someone putting them in for a HPDE weekend, putting a few hours total on track, and then draining after again, unless of course the car is a dedicated track car or sees little street driving. The guys that are using them in their daily drivers because they go to the drag strip twice a month are really not using them correctly.

502 stuff is not a track oil of course and is probably better slightly suited to long track sessions than 504, but for 20 minute sessions or in the OP's case, a few minutes at a time is no problem at all.

 

[edyvw]

Yes but track oils aren't really meant to be used long term and use additives that really need a good amount of heat to become fully active. When I think of track oils I think of someone putting them in for a HPDE weekend, putting a few hours total on track, and then draining after again, unless of course the car is a dedicated track car or sees little street driving. The guys that are using them in their daily drivers because they go to the drag strip twice a month are really not using them correctly.

502 stuff is not a track oil of course and is probably better slightly suited to long track sessions than 504, but for 20 minute sessions or in the OP's case, a few minutes at a time is no problem at all.

Track oils such as Motul 300V are perfectly ok for 3-5k runs based what we have seen here. In EA888 that oil won’t have any issues to reach appropriate temperature.
Mobil1 on other hand specifically says M1 0W40 is suitable for street/track use. Probably 5W40 is same based on composition but in his case bcs. he is running short runs I would go something not too thick, maybe Edge 0W30 or M1 0W40 considering that it is fairly thin or Motul 5W30 300V.
Now, there is IMO difference between “competing” and “few track days.” For me competition means you are in there for a win not to blow off some steam like I do after dropping kids to day care and than go on track with child seats in the back.
IMO that is difference here. I would run UOA to see where I am. For short runs and drag, I wouldn’t shy away from Motul 0W20 or 0W15 300V if he is in there for a win.

 

[930.engineering]

Use either VW G13 or G12evo and distilled water only:

35 % anti-freeze & 65 % distilled water >> -20°C frost protection
40 % anti-freeze & 60 % distilled water >> -25°C frost protection

I'd almost bet at 35/65 ratio you'll see peak coolant temps reduced by 5 or even 10 Kelvin.
Oil temps will drop nearly the same, since oil temp more or less follows coolant temp due
to the oil/coolant heat exchanger this engine comes with.

Btw., VW/Audi use one to two additional radiators on the GTI Clubsport, GTI TCR, R, TTS and
S3 versions. These auxiliary/additional radiators are retrofittable and this OE solution is proven
to work well. However I don't think this is necessary. Coolant mixture ratio should do the trick.

Btw., is your GTI stock? Is it DSG or manual? The very first and preferably very early gear oil change is
the most important one, no matter if you have a manual or a DSG transmission.

Since you have a manual, I'd recommend swapping the factory G 052 527 (75W) gear oil for
either Castrol Syntrans V-FE 75W-80 or Redline MT-85. You could also use G 052 527 again, as
the most important thing is the gear oil change itself. Any factory new transmission will have
some fabrication residue and run-in "wear" comes in addition. You want to get rid of that soon.

Yes, both Porsche C30 5W-30 (equivalent to VW 504 00) and Porsche C40 5W-40 (VW 511 00) are
excellent choices and by far better suited for this purpose. I'd recommend two oils in particular:

- Mobil1 ESP 5W-30 (VW 504 00, MB 229.51, 229.52, Porsche C30)
- Ravenol RUP 5W-40 (VW 511 00, BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, Porsche A40, not C40)

ACEA C3 and Porsche A40 approval simultaneously, Noack 6,0 %, HTHS 3,9 mPа*s, sulphated ash 0,8 %
- so Porsche A40 obviously doesn't require full SAPS. Nevertheless, I too am surprised RUP doesn't meet
Porsche C40 instead of A40. It probably simply is approved to the more popular A40, while it certainly is
good enough for C40, since it does come with VW 511 00, which is VW's equivalent to Porsche C40.

 

[Malo83]

Sunday coming back home from San Diego over the Grapevine, temps hit 115* and the oil temp in the 2.0T Regal GS was at 250, she took it all in stride, this was coming up the long climb going north, running Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 and Wix.

 

[Cujet]

122c is ok and normal for motor oil and an engine.

Not so under some circumstances.

First, it's good to know that racers are improving HP by reducing viscosity. However, those who are successfully racing a 0W-20 oil ALWAYS manage oil temperatures very well. Often by using dry sump systems and a very large oil cooler system that is thermostatically managed. A high RPM racing engine will see 100c oil temps using 0W-20.

Street cars that tend to experience ever climbing oil temperatures during competition always go with robust oils to prevent excessively low viscosity. The thought that today's engines are somehow different, and therefore have different needs than engines of the past is absolutely incorrect. Not only is bearing clearance often exactly the same, but so are the loads the bearings are subject to. Some engines use lighter pistons than in the past, but remember, RPM is higher, result=same bearing loads.

Remember that inertial loads on the rod bearings are RPM related, and peak load occurs around TDC, on the exhaust stroke.

 

[edyvw]

Not so under some circumstances.

First, it's good to know that racers are improving HP by reducing viscosity. However, those who are successfully racing a 0W-20 oil ALWAYS manage oil temperatures very well. Often by using dry sump systems and a very large oil cooler system that is thermostatically managed. A high RPM racing engine will see 100c oil temps using 0W-20.

Street cars that tend to experience ever climbing oil temperatures during competition always go with robust oils to prevent excessively low viscosity. The thought that today's engines are somehow different, and therefore have different needs than engines of the past is absolutely incorrect. Not only is bearing clearance often exactly the same, but so are the loads the bearings are subject to. Some engines use lighter pistons than in the past, but remember, RPM is higher, result=same bearing loads.

Remember that inertial loads on the rod bearings are RPM related, and peak load occurs around TDC, on the exhaust stroke.

I understand that and I absolutely agree.
The question here that I think is key is how serious this competition is? Is it for just some fun or this is some serious stuff?
I immediately said that a real oil cooler here is necessary as we are talking high altitude. Larger coolant radiator, CSF, or Mishimoto would probably be the first thing to do and the easiest one.
I think talking about oils and how robust they are before addressing a stout cooling system is just band-aid.
If this is a serious competition, I would run oil appropriate for that event. If it is drag, then very light. Hill climb I would go 5W30 but again, track/race specific oil. Take it out between events and put street oil for regular driving.
If OP does not want to switch between oils, IMO, Castrol Edge 0W30 or Mobil1 0W40 would be the best bang between protection, detergent/dispersant properties and keeping parasitic drag in check. If he was running track with longer times spent on track then Mobil1 0W40 would be the minimum thickness I would go.
I personally on track run minimum XW40 oil, and have a dedicated oil cooler, not a fluid/fluid heat exchanger and I do it only for fun.

But, again, I think first and foremost he needs to go larger cooling radiator and dedicated oil cooler. AFter that oil choice is easier too.

 

[Davejam]

Do people really think that running lower viscosity is ever advisable for the hobby racer?
This is the stuff for serious racing...I would think mechanical reliability always would favor higher viscosity within reason of what the vehicle was designed to run on.

 

[edyvw]

Do people really think that running lower viscosity is ever advisable for the hobby racer?
This is the stuff for serious racing...I would think mechanical reliability always would favor higher viscosity within reason of what the vehicle was designed to run on.

Well, his engine is already recommended for 0W20, which I think for this particular engine is too thin, but whatever.
However, running low viscosity oil like Motul 0W20 300V or Mobil1 Racing 0W30 is OK on drag strip, autocross. We are talking specifically made oils for such events.
On track is a different story.
But again, regardless of oil, improvements on cooling system would be my first step.

 

[ZedzAmg]

I had a Golf Gti Rabbit. Under the hood there was the new 0w20 sticker. I had a friend who worked as a service writer at a VW dealer; I asked him, did you hear anything about the gti being a 0w20 now? He said what? That's dumb.

The oil spec was changed to raise fleet mpg. The Golf R is still specced with the older more stout license.