How can both of these oils be excellent options?

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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by paoester
Today, German engine oil performance specs demand the best oils, resulting in typically longer oil change intervals as well as better engine protection for hard driving.
Show me the data that supports this claim..


German oil specs are well known. The key to understanding it is to look at the tests performed, the amount of tests performed, the length of them, etc. Ringlands must stay clear, wear, longevity, etc.
My VW 508 application says 10,000 mile oil change intervals due to all this. GM's dexos1 intervals are about 7,500 miles by comparison, perfectly in line with how stringent the specs are.
Kia lets you go around 6,000 miles typically in their engines, and allows conventional SN oil. See the pattern here? Let the engineers at these companies bring "the data" as you whine about.
https://www.aftonchemical.com/Afton/media/PdfFiles/Afton-Chemical-Spec-Handbook-September-2019.pdf
Read that, see some tests performed, then get back with us about what you've learned.

Until then, don't try to second guess Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, & Porsche engineers.

Blah blah blah - that's all on paper bucko, not IRL - are you new to vehicle ownership, just curious??.. and you still haven't answered the question and haven't provided a scintilla of evidence that supports your claim that all your "approvals" with German base oil requirements blah blah, translate to longer engine life. I on the other hand provided two pieces of data that suggests that there is no decided advantage, as far as engine longevity is concerned, to using a lube with your German approvals v. your run of the mill house brand with API/ILSAC approvals. In fact Newton's earlier post here in this thread appears (to me at least) to support my position. That for the avg passenger car vehicle, there is no demonstrable benefit to using a fancy shmancy, high priced lube made with grp4/5 base oils and a laundry list of German approvals.

Your turn bucko...



Yes if Grp4 and 5 were really that great why haven't we seen an undeniable leap in engine life to say 700k miles at least after all its nearly twice as expensive. But say I'll let the rocket scientists battle it out.
 
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mad_hatter, You completely miss the point. Typical for all your posts. Read it all again.
And did you finish the Afton spec handboook yet? Until you do all that, you can't second guess engineers at Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, & Porsche. Sorry! Just the truth.

Maybe your core problem is with understanding oil change interval correlation with spec toughness, or maybe you can't understand high performance driving requirements. I don't know where you're losing it here.

And rudeness and name calling isn't allowed on this forum.
 
Only on BITOG would someone try to argue Euro specs are not more robust and tougher to meet than SN specs
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Only on BITOG would someone try to argue Euro specs are not more robust and tougher to meet than SN specs
crazy2.gif

Very true. I'd be the first to say though that you can use the lower spec SN Group2 oils where oil change intervals are not too long. Similar to my example comparison above where Kia vs. GM vs. VW oil change length varies based on spec toughness.

And, add to that some special oil performance requirements for racing, towing, or any high heat operations or extreme cold starting, and you can see there is a place for the higher tougher German specs and/or using a full synthetic.

Many people just like to use the best oil regardless of the minimum basic requirements, especially for those engines prone to ring sticking in the long run, or in case an oil change date is missed a little.
 
If you don't have time to duplicate the career of German oil spec engineers,

Part of the Porsche A40 engine test protocol is seen at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iWayU
... and that is run 5 times to get A40. Along with a host of other tests. Wow. You can't get a Group2 oil to pass this, as most of us can understand.



Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Found this while looking for the price of some of the Euro approvals:

Quote
Here is Porsche A40 testing procedure:

This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the �N�rburgring� racetrack,
- 3.5 hours of �running-in� program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.


From here:
http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/746579-oil-labeling-certification-porsche-approved.html

smile.gif
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Only on BITOG would someone try to argue Euro specs are not more robust and tougher to meet than SN specs
crazy2.gif


Where did I say that? Go back and read the entire thread before chiming in. Nowhere did I say or imply that Euro specs aren't "tougher". What I said, for the reading impaired like yourself, is that your "robust" euro specs don't guarantee longer engine life. They look good on paper, that's about it. There are too many other variables that come into play that have a greater effect on engine wear than what Euro approvals a lube has... and if the current API SN, ILSAC GF5 didn't provide adequate lubrication for the vast majority of passenger vehicles, where's the dearth of engine failures?.. where's the boneyard of dead engines that ran nothing but lowly old Jiffy Lube/PZ dino, why do N. American vehicles have a longer lifespan if the API/ILSAC specs were inadequate in re engine lubrication?

Originally Posted by paoester
mad_hatter, You completely miss the point. Typical for all your posts. Read it all again.
And did you finish the Afton spec handboook yet? Until you do all that, you can't second guess engineers at Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, & Porsche. Sorry! Just the truth.

Maybe your core problem is with understanding oil change interval correlation with spec toughness, or maybe you can't understand high performance driving requirements. I don't know where you're losing it here.

And rudeness and name calling isn't allowed on this forum.

Nope..no core problem here. The only one with a problem is you, because you still can't back up your assertion that your Euro approvals guarantee longer engine life......but by all means continue to skirt the question.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Only on BITOG would someone try to argue Euro specs are not more robust and tougher to meet than SN specs
crazy2.gif


Where did I say that? Go back and read the entire thread before chiming in. Nowhere did I say or imply that Euro specs aren't "tougher". What I said, for the reading impaired like yourself, is that your "robust" euro specs don't guarantee longer engine life. They look good on paper, that's about it. There are too many other variables that come into play that have a greater effect on engine wear than what Euro approvals a lube has... and if the current API SN, ILSAC GF5 didn't provide adequate lubrication for the vast majority of passenger vehicles, where's the dearth of engine failures?.. where's the boneyard of dead engines that ran nothing but lowly old Jiffy Lube/PZ dino, why do N. American vehicles have a longer lifespan if the API/ILSAC specs were inadequate in re engine lubrication?

Originally Posted by paoester
mad_hatter, You completely miss the point. Typical for all your posts. Read it all again.
And did you finish the Afton spec handboook yet? Until you do all that, you can't second guess engineers at Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, & Porsche. Sorry! Just the truth.

Maybe your core problem is with understanding oil change interval correlation with spec toughness, or maybe you can't understand high performance driving requirements. I don't know where you're losing it here.

And rudeness and name calling isn't allowed on this forum.

Nope..no core problem here. The only one with a problem is you, because you still can't back up your assertion that your Euro approvals guarantee longer engine life......but by all means continue to skirt the question.


Well, apparently you can't read either, because what was originally posted:

Originally Posted by paoester

Today, German engine oil performance specs demand the best oils, resulting in typically longer oil change intervals as well as better engine protection for hard driving.


Doesn't say the engine will last longer - Which is apparently what you are arguing.

As for why vehicles in America are on average older than German or EU vehicles, there could be twenty different reasons for this, virtually none of which have to do with actual engine wear.
 
So should a quality oil just aim for the Porsche A40 spec if this is the most stringent of them all?
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells

Doesn't say the engine will last longer - Which is apparently what you are arguing. - this discussion between paoester and I is a carryover from one started in another thread.

As for why vehicles in America are on average older than German or EU vehicles, there could be twenty different reasons for this, virtually none of which have to do with actual engine wear. - or, it could have EVERYTHING to do with wear.... Fact is you don't know any more than i do without being able to to a deep dive into the data and that's why I said the data "suggests". But one thing I think we CAN rule out, is N. American engines running API specd lubes aren't experiencing shortened engine life w/respect to their European counterparts. If you're owners manual says use MB this or VW that, by all means use it and sleep well at night. Like I say, your car your wallet. But if your owners manual calls for using an API specd lube, there's no reason to believe that the API specd lube is going to provide inferior wear protection and in turn a shortened engine life.
 
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For those two specific examples, I think the difference would be the service interval.
Chevron Supreme is good oil but, all other things being equal, it will not go as many miles as Mobil 1 EP.
So I would use the Chevron Supreme up to 7.5k mile intervals under normal service. M1EP could go 10-12k miles under normal service or 7.5k under severe service. Round numbers, don't quote me here, but you get the point.
 
Originally Posted by DGXR
For those two specific examples, I think the difference would be the service interval.
Chevron Supreme is good oil but, all other things being equal, it will not go as many miles as Mobil 1 EP.
So I would use the Chevron Supreme up to 7.5k mile intervals under normal service. M1EP could go 10-12k miles under normal service or 7.5k under severe service. Round numbers, don't quote me here, but you get the point.


So what you're saying is Chevron Supreme isnt adequate enough to cover say, a 1.6L Fiestas 10k OEM oci? Or a 5.7L Rams 10K OEM oci? Because it meets both ford and chrysler spec, therefore it should.
 
Originally Posted by dnewton3

There are two schools of thought here on BITOG.
- One camp focuses on what's in the bottle; they ponder and pander over the base stock and additives in virgin oil form.
- Another camp focuses on what oils are like as they come out of the crankcase; they review and analyze the resulting wear data and oil characteristics.

I believe the more accurate way to judge a lube is for what it does in your equipment, not what it looks like on the shelf. Scads and oodles of data have proven to me that for most common applications, syns do not perform anywhere on a par with the increase in their cost. If you pay 2x more money for a syn, you don't get 2x less wear in a normal OCI. In fact, you really don't get any discernible difference whatsoever. I have over 16,000 UOAs in my database; if there were evidence of disparity, I'd know it for sure. It's not there. In fact, regardless of additives or base stock, wear rates generally fall off as the OCI matures, even out to 15k miles (where my data typically stops).

To look at this in a totally different manner, ask yourself this ...
What's more important; knowing the starting roster of your favorite football team, or knowing the score at the end of the game?
Predictions based on VOA inputs are one thing.
Results based on UOA performance is another.
I eschew the former and embrace the later.



I generally agree with that - we all care for the results. But there was a lot of prediction focused work to achieve the desired results. As you have mentioned many times over in this forum, today's oils are not the same as yesteryear's and that's due to all that work and research. Yet, there's a point when spending more is of no use. All major players in the oil industry have figured out how to manufacture lubes to keep the engines running for a long, long time, regardless of prices, add-packs, etc. Specs are about all that users should care for: some are more stringent, some more lax, but as long as they meet your application's requirements, it's going to be Okay.
 
Originally Posted by paoester
If you don't have time to duplicate the career of German oil spec engineers,

Part of the Porsche A40 engine test protocol is seen at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9xl7iWayU
... and that is run 5 times to get A40. Along with a host of other tests. Wow. You can't get a Group2 oil to pass this, as most of us can understand.



Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Found this while looking for the price of some of the Euro approvals:

Quote
Here is Porsche A40 testing procedure:

This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the �N�rburgring� racetrack,
- 3.5 hours of �running-in� program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.


From here:
http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/746579-oil-labeling-certification-porsche-approved.html

smile.gif







Man i want to ride that thing it looks fun
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted by paoester
Until then, don't try to second guess Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, & Porsche engineers.


[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson

Yes if Grp4 and 5 were really that great why haven't we seen an undeniable leap in engine life to say 700k miles at least after all its nearly twice as expensive. But say I'll let the rocket scientists battle it out.

🎯🎯🎯.. and these are the same people that believe spending 2x as much on a dandruff shampoo will get rid of their dandruff twice as fast. ...‚..When in reality the house brand has the same chemistry, for the most part. Similarly, spending 2x as much on oil with a laundry list of approvals does not guarantee 2x less wear and in turn double the serviceable life of the engine. But if dropping that kind of money on a lube gives one the warm and fuzzies that only a spendy lube can provide...I say go on with your bad self!...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson

Yes if Grp4 and 5 were really that great why haven't we seen an undeniable leap in engine life to say 700k miles at least after all its nearly twice as expensive. But say I'll let the rocket scientists battle it out.

🎯🎯🎯.. and these are the same people that believe spending 2x as much on a dandruff shampoo will get rid of their dandruff twice as fast. ...‚..When in reality the house brand has the same chemistry, for the most part. Similarly, spending 2x as much on oil with a laundry list of approvals does not guarantee 2x less wear and in turn double the serviceable life of the engine. But if dropping that kind of money on a lube gives one the warm and fuzzies that only a spendy lube can provide...I say go on with your bad self!...


Sorry bud I wash my hair everyday and I don't have dandruff but try again.
 
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson

Yes if Grp4 and 5 were really that great why haven't we seen an undeniable leap in engine life to say 700k miles at least after all its nearly twice as expensive. But say I'll let the rocket scientists battle it out.

🎯🎯🎯.. and these are the same people that believe spending 2x as much on a dandruff shampoo will get rid of their dandruff twice as fast. ...‚..When in reality the house brand has the same chemistry, for the most part. Similarly, spending 2x as much on oil with a laundry list of approvals does not guarantee 2x less wear and in turn double the serviceable life of the engine. But if dropping that kind of money on a lube gives one the warm and fuzzies that only a spendy lube can provide...I say go on with your bad self!...


Sorry bud I wash my hair everyday and I don't have dandruff but try again.

Wasn't talking bout you... and fwiw, dandruff is a "condition" of the skin and in most cases has nothing to do with how frequent one washes their hair but rather a fungal infection or an issue with the skin cells like a seborrea or psoriasis. I have to use a steroid based Rx shampoo because I have scalp psoriasis which does cause skin flakes. The steroid basically calms the skin down..
 
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Originally Posted by Direct_Rejection
My preference is Porsche C20.

Motul Specific 508 00 509 00 0W20.

HTHS 2.5 mPa.s

smirk.gif



Is Motul the only company producing oil to meet this spec?

I can imagine that running such an expensive oil would be overkill in a bare bones Toyota or Honda...
 
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Two reasons:

1. Either one would meet or exceed the requirements of the application, and

2. People are talking WAY beyond what they can possibly know.


Absolutely! This is the ONLY answer!
 
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