Did Honda's U.S. marketing department also write the software for their OLI/OLM?
Honda's take on the 3000 mile oil change
- Thread starter widman
- Start date
- Status
427Z06, If engineers are always correct with something as mundane as OCI and oil choice why have we seen so many sludge issues??? Remember Toyota,DCX,Audi etc.......Why have some Merceds and BMW had some odd parts patern failure? I find it humerious that as oil gets better we seem to keep seeing more sludge,carbon and heavy varnish issues now then ever in the past?
I would agree that with a quality synthetic and a large enough oil capacity these now longer then ever OCI could work well! In many cases though these extended (as compared to 3000 mile OCI)are not working well in the real world at all. Too many people use oils that do not meet spec.! Then you have all of the non-synthetic "synthetics cluttering the shelfs. Then you have stupid engineering calls like smaller then normal sump size, poor placement of exhaust parts too close to oil pans and timeing covers etc........
I think all of us have seen how well 10,000 mile plus OCI can work under the right circumstances. It is my opion that most of the longer OCI's being recomended by OEM's especialy if they do not have a special oil requirment is to lower initial cost of ownership. This is also why somethings are now listed as check and replace instead of haveing a hard milage recomendation. A good example of this is how GM has for a long time not recomended changeing the fuel filter. It obviously is not going to last forever but buy elimanateing it from the maintence schedule as well as other key items they were able to get the initial cost of ownership down!
I would agree that with a quality synthetic and a large enough oil capacity these now longer then ever OCI could work well! In many cases though these extended (as compared to 3000 mile OCI)are not working well in the real world at all. Too many people use oils that do not meet spec.! Then you have all of the non-synthetic "synthetics cluttering the shelfs. Then you have stupid engineering calls like smaller then normal sump size, poor placement of exhaust parts too close to oil pans and timeing covers etc........
I think all of us have seen how well 10,000 mile plus OCI can work under the right circumstances. It is my opion that most of the longer OCI's being recomended by OEM's especialy if they do not have a special oil requirment is to lower initial cost of ownership. This is also why somethings are now listed as check and replace instead of haveing a hard milage recomendation. A good example of this is how GM has for a long time not recomended changeing the fuel filter. It obviously is not going to last forever but buy elimanateing it from the maintence schedule as well as other key items they were able to get the initial cost of ownership down!
I'd personally dump the factory oil asap. A new engine needs to be flushed. Theres no two ways about it. If a Honda block can get shipping with a big gaping hole in the block due to casting, then there can be Silicon and contaminants galore recirculating the lube system. I wonder what algorithm the OLM uses to calculate approx. casting materials washing off the crankcase?
the GM oil light uses a set input from rpm, temp and tripometer to know when to set the OIL Change light. I was trained on GM vehicles and my Tech school was in cahoots with a local dealer. We all had the impression if you're a regular mom and pop with a 3.8 using good oil and filters just wait til the light comes on. If you drive a LS1 trans am and drive it hard do 4K intervals. I think Ultimately the OC light is there for a reminder when you go past the maximum possible.... last resort situation.
martyi
Member # 7931 posted 04 April, 2006 11:11
Member # 7931 posted 04 April, 2006 11:11
On the Honda S2000 forum I have been reading about the OLI/OLM. Its a new feature for 2006 models, not for the older ones. It doesn't "probe" the oil, it calculates the "life". You can reset it yourself, the procedure should be in your owners manual.
JB, why am I not surprised you want to pick on engineers for the umpteenth time? Seems like your jealous or something.
Back to the question at hand. How many sludge issues have we seen with Hondas? ZERO to the best of my recollection. And I think we're pretty certain that the vast majority of vehicle owners out there don't even follow the owner's manual very closely. Otherwise many more would know what a severe schedule is.
As far as the other manufacturers, Toyota dropped the ball for sure. But we have no idea what goals the engine engineers were given. They could of been told to fix the emission issues these engines had for as cheaply as possible. Then the design guys decided to shrink the oil pan size for styling reasons. Then the engine engineers passed a warning up to management that the safety factor left was marginal on OCIs, but management decided to press on anyhow. Who knows for sure unless you were there in the chain of command. My 26 years experience as an engineer is we're a conservative lot by nature, and were constantly being told were over-engineering over-testing everything. At least that's been my experience.
Most of DCX issues I'm convinced are quality control issues in the production facility. Here again, where I've worked, management drives quality control. If they want it, they make sure it happens, if they don't it falls by the wayside.
Audi, BMW, Mercedes is probably more due to culture clash. Germans and their ACEA and long OCIs, and Americans with their API and short OCIs since most Americans buy the cheapest oil out there.
Back to Hondas. I've known many, many Honda owners that follow the normal schedule even if they really fall under the severe schedule yet I can't recall ever seeing, hearing, or reading about a sludged Honda unless there was a problem outside of the lubrication system. And to date, the OLM/OLI recommendations have fallen pretty close to the original owner's manual recommendations, shortening and lengthening OCIs as conditions warrant. GM OLM/OLI has proven it's worth too. How many GM sludgemonsters have we heard of?
As side note fuel filters - with many vehicles today, the only one there is is in the fuel tank. And that's about the last thing I want an incompetent dealer tech doing...removing my fuel tank every other oil change when they generally last for +125,000 miles without service. If your fuel filter is getting clogged, stop buying your gas at Uncle Joe's corner feed store where the tanks are filled with 40 years of crud.
yeah a few years back the annual maintenance costs of a Honda was a small fortune with brake service, valve adjustments, tranny fluid changes and oil changes required on a regular basis. The new Hondas stretch things out a lot more and are much more inexpensive to operate these days. Coupled with great reliability the costs of ownership have dropped significantly.
Kestas
Staff member
427Z06 painted a good picture of what goes on in an engineering firm.
All too often I see management turn to engineers only as a last resort in fixing a problem.... probably because they don't want to hear the truth.
All too often I see management turn to engineers only as a last resort in fixing a problem.... probably because they don't want to hear the truth.
Ultimately, Honda's engineers (or outside code-bashers under contract) wrote the code in compliance with what they're told to do by Honda's upper management. 427Z06, why is it so hard for you to make the connection that engineering is market driven? Honda's not in business to engineer the best cars built - they're in business to make m-o-n-e-y. Engineering, to a management predetermined point is simply a means to an end - and at that it's on a tight leash - no less, no more, than what management dictates. Honda management stresses engineering more than much of its competition. Honda sales figures and product reliability show the company's business model works rather well. Past sludgemonster issues notwithstanding, apparently, Toyota's business model works a bit better judging by that company's sales figures.
Ray, we're not to far in disagreement. I'm well aware that many times engineering is market driven. However, sometimes it's not. Sometimes management decides to give engineering the proper funding, time, personnel and well defined goals to get the job done right. In this age of the "faster, cheaper, better" corporate culture it may not be happening as often, but when your reputation as one of the better engine design and manufacturers is on the line, I tend to lean toward them getting this one close to right.
Now specifically talking about OLM/OLIs in general, many people freak when these things start predicting longer OCIs than they're accustomed to. But if you step back and think about it for a moment, one realizes all the safety margins they had to build into a simple mileage/time recommendations for a wide variety of driving conditions. Add to that the fact that the typical customer doesn't even read the owner's manual and is unaware of the "regular" and "severe" maintenance schedules, and I believe the OLM/OLIs is far superior to that of depending on the integrity of stealerships and quickie lube places to inform you of the "best" OCIs.
If you want to pick on someone, why not go after the marketeers of 25K-35K OCIs?
As a side note: research how the relationship between the manufacturers and the stealerships has evolved over the years. One may be shocked on the amount of power the stealerships obtained and had written into law
From the pen of "I drink motor oil".....yeah a few years back the annual maintenance costs of a Honda was a small fortune with brake service, valve adjustments, tranny fluid changes and oil changes required on a regular basis. The new Hondas stretch things out a lot more and are much more inexpensive to operate these days. Coupled with great reliability the costs of ownership have dropped significantly
But for me, the operating costs of the '88 Accord were very low indeed (I am a DIY), except for one mistake of going to the stealership to fix a problem...and this "stealership" term is well deserved.
Sludge and engineering are mentioned..
Seems as if we still do not know exactly why this occurs on turbocharged Saabs, Toyotas, but not Honda nor GM...
And it also seems as if the Japanese work together far better than the Americans in the business world....
The oil life monitor(computerized and well engineered ), is an excellent idea - to both save resources and engines...I do hope GM holds the patents and that both Toyota and Honda have to pay.....
But for me, the operating costs of the '88 Accord were very low indeed (I am a DIY), except for one mistake of going to the stealership to fix a problem...and this "stealership" term is well deserved.
Sludge and engineering are mentioned..
Seems as if we still do not know exactly why this occurs on turbocharged Saabs, Toyotas, but not Honda nor GM...
And it also seems as if the Japanese work together far better than the Americans in the business world....
The oil life monitor(computerized and well engineered ), is an excellent idea - to both save resources and engines...I do hope GM holds the patents and that both Toyota and Honda have to pay.....
I have a 2003 Accord 2.4 with 44,000 miles and has had 5000 mile oil and filter changers with no problems. Unless your daughter is consistently redlining the engine, I fail to understand the need for 3750 mile oil changes.
You all touched on my thoughts and comments to my daughter in one way or another. I'm not always in the US when it needs service. I suggested that she stay with the countdown by the computer and be causius about their other recomendations.
In Bolivia, where my business is, I have been on an uphill battle for the 10 years I've been in business, convincing people that a CI-4 group II oil will protect better and last longer, and extend intervals beyond 2000 km (1200 miles). The local oils (and from neighboring countries) lose viscosity by 1500 km, then rapidly start oxidizing til they get super thick. But the service stations do not want 6000 km oil (that is the base we talk about) because they will lose business.
I have analized over 3000 motor oils, and found that people's driving (and maintenance) habits are the biggest factor in oil change intervals. We start any company with whatever they are used to and analize, fix air intakes, inyectors, thermostats, radiators, etc. until we can get to 1 ppm of iron per 1000 km. (watching copper, lead, etc) Then we start increasing intervals and fine tune the rest. People with 40 km commutes or trips between plants can easilly surpass this at 15,000 km intervals. Those with short trips end up limiting to 6 months.
So I believe it is stupid to change every 3750 regardless of driving habits, and the dealer who recommends ignoring the computer looses my respect. Maybe the computers need to get better sensors and software, which will come in time, but it is better than over-extending intervals to 3000 for some people (sludge buildup) and wasting oil and money for others.
And I think engineers are generally in better control than we give them credit for. Just look at most of the vehicles offered with 4x4... The same engine in a 4x2 vehicle usually has a smaller sump.
An optimist is someone who looks at a glass as half full.
A pesimist looks at it as half empty
An engineer looks at the glass as twice as big as necesary to hold the liquid.
In Bolivia, where my business is, I have been on an uphill battle for the 10 years I've been in business, convincing people that a CI-4 group II oil will protect better and last longer, and extend intervals beyond 2000 km (1200 miles). The local oils (and from neighboring countries) lose viscosity by 1500 km, then rapidly start oxidizing til they get super thick. But the service stations do not want 6000 km oil (that is the base we talk about) because they will lose business.
I have analized over 3000 motor oils, and found that people's driving (and maintenance) habits are the biggest factor in oil change intervals. We start any company with whatever they are used to and analize, fix air intakes, inyectors, thermostats, radiators, etc. until we can get to 1 ppm of iron per 1000 km. (watching copper, lead, etc) Then we start increasing intervals and fine tune the rest. People with 40 km commutes or trips between plants can easilly surpass this at 15,000 km intervals. Those with short trips end up limiting to 6 months.
So I believe it is stupid to change every 3750 regardless of driving habits, and the dealer who recommends ignoring the computer looses my respect. Maybe the computers need to get better sensors and software, which will come in time, but it is better than over-extending intervals to 3000 for some people (sludge buildup) and wasting oil and money for others.
And I think engineers are generally in better control than we give them credit for. Just look at most of the vehicles offered with 4x4... The same engine in a 4x2 vehicle usually has a smaller sump.
An optimist is someone who looks at a glass as half full.
A pesimist looks at it as half empty
An engineer looks at the glass as twice as big as necesary to hold the liquid.
same here, I took my wife sienna with 2k miles on it for the first oil change at metro toyota in kzoo, michigan,
provided my 5 quart jug of M1, the smucks put a sticker on my windshield
next oil change at 6000 miles or 6 months,
toyota recommends 6 months or 5000 miles if I am not mistaken, arrrrr
provided my 5 quart jug of M1, the smucks put a sticker on my windshield
next oil change at 6000 miles or 6 months,
toyota recommends 6 months or 5000 miles if I am not mistaken, arrrrr
That is for the Toyota sludgers.
Yours is not!
But since there is no such a thing as a Toyota Sludger according to Toyota of course, even though it has created a specific warranty guidelines just for those, then the company simply extends the OCI requirement to the rest of the non-sludgers.
For the millionth time here is a list of the Toyota Sludgers.
Redlining is NOT the oil killing condition.quote:
Originally posted by greenfordtruck:
Unless your daughter is consistently redlining the engine, I fail to understand the need for 3750 mile oil changes.
Frequent cold start-ups followed by short trips IS.
Actually, the 2AZ-FE is not a "sludger" yet Toyota/Scion does recommend a 5K mile/6 month oil change interval.
I think some of the GM guys and gals with the Pontiac Vibe have an even shorter recommended OCI. That's the 1ZZ-?? series of engines.
Toyota is still pretty conservative with the North American OCI recommendations.
However, as I learned, they did recently recommend 5W-20 ILSAC GF4 for the 2006 model vehicles and 0W-20 in some 2006 and 2007's.
- Status
