Vikas, I should have added that I'm only going to do this until I need glasses.
Honda VCM Class Action Settlement
- Thread starter Indydriver
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Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I know a five owners of VCM equipped Ody's. They have had no issues with 80k-150k and all generally happy with the vehicle and excellent MPG(highway only, city still lackluster). I wonder how widespread the issue is, obviously it exists but what is the trouble rate?
That all being said I asked them all of average MPG and they get (19-20MPG) when getting my MDX a few years back. This indicates they drive just like I do in my 07 MDX(17MPG), nearly all stop-go/city so VCM barely used.
This is the key to the problem and one reason it appears in certain vehicles. Steady state driving on the highway when VCM is in 3 cyl mode for long periods seems to be the most damaging.
Our 2013 Ody is in ECO mode any time that a constant speed is being kept, even down to a 20mph crawl through our residental neighborhood. Maybe the newer models are even more sensitive than the past ones as to how often the VCM kicks in. I was actually surprised to see it come on so often, as I was expecting to only see it at speeds that were attained in 5th and 6th gear or maybe at or above 45mph.
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I know a five owners of VCM equipped Ody's. They have had no issues with 80k-150k and all generally happy with the vehicle and excellent MPG(highway only, city still lackluster). I wonder how widespread the issue is, obviously it exists but what is the trouble rate?
That all being said I asked them all of average MPG and they get (19-20MPG) when getting my MDX a few years back. This indicates they drive just like I do in my 07 MDX(17MPG), nearly all stop-go/city so VCM barely used.
This is the key to the problem and one reason it appears in certain vehicles. Steady state driving on the highway when VCM is in 3 cyl mode for long periods seems to be the most damaging.
Our 2013 Ody is in ECO mode any time that a constant speed is being kept, even down to a 20mph crawl through our residental neighborhood. Maybe the newer models are even more sensitive than the past ones as to how often the VCM kicks in. I was actually surprised to see it come on so often, as I was expecting to only see it at speeds that were attained in 5th and 6th gear or maybe at or above 45mph.
The settlement starts with MY 2008 so it doesn't include your 2005.
According to Honda's tech bulletin, the problem is exacerbated by steady state highway driving. My car, which only has 22,000 on it, has been used 99% in town so the VCM is only activated for short periods of time. Honda announced engine modifications for MY 2011 that included new piston rings and moly impregnated piston skirts that seem to have helped later model years or maybe they just don't have enough miles on them yet.
I'd trade the Honda engine in a NY minute for the 3.5 liter Mopar in my 300M and Intrepid. What a beautiful engine! Doesn't drip a drop after 200,000 miles. Good power with respectable mileage. As reliable as the day is long.
I'd trade the Honda engine in a NY minute for the 3.5 liter Mopar in my 300M and Intrepid. What a beautiful engine! Doesn't drip a drop after 200,000 miles. Good power with respectable mileage. As reliable as the day is long.
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One swap that might actually be somewhat feasible (though I know you were joking) is a J35 swap from a Ridgeline or older MDX like ours, or even a J37 swap from a newer MDX. These do not have VCM and are one of the smoothest V-6 engines you can find. And the "truck" versions of the V-6s have a cool 2" intake plenum spacer that is supposed to add low- and mid-range torque. A number of Accord folks have added the plenum spacer to their V-6 engines with good results.
Originally Posted By: refaller
Does it only impact the VCMs that use 3, 4 and 6 cylinder operation? Mine has VCM and I love it. No oil burning yet after 125000 miles and almost 9 years now. Plus, I am averaging over 22mpgs overall. Not bad for a large vehicle with some get up and go.
ref
The older ones can under certain prolonged or repetitive driving conditions (e.g extreme soccer mom duty or extended operation in "eco mode") have sludge, varnish and deposit issues.
It may be a small percentage of vehicles effected but extended VCM operation or going into "eco mode" often on only a slightly warmed up engine on a daily basis seems to magnify the problem.
The problem is many vehicles do in fact operate in "soccer mom" conditions and the owners just don't realize it.
Repeated short trip every day with a cooling cycle between each trip certainly qualifies as does longer highway drives back and forth to work in almost in permanent "eco mode".
The engines probably least effected will be the ones the ones driven 10-20 miles each way on secondary roads.
Higher engine temperatures on the front cylinder bank and an under performing PCV system don't help the situation especially using conventional oils.
Does it only impact the VCMs that use 3, 4 and 6 cylinder operation? Mine has VCM and I love it. No oil burning yet after 125000 miles and almost 9 years now. Plus, I am averaging over 22mpgs overall. Not bad for a large vehicle with some get up and go.
ref
The older ones can under certain prolonged or repetitive driving conditions (e.g extreme soccer mom duty or extended operation in "eco mode") have sludge, varnish and deposit issues.
It may be a small percentage of vehicles effected but extended VCM operation or going into "eco mode" often on only a slightly warmed up engine on a daily basis seems to magnify the problem.
The problem is many vehicles do in fact operate in "soccer mom" conditions and the owners just don't realize it.
Repeated short trip every day with a cooling cycle between each trip certainly qualifies as does longer highway drives back and forth to work in almost in permanent "eco mode".
The engines probably least effected will be the ones the ones driven 10-20 miles each way on secondary roads.
Higher engine temperatures on the front cylinder bank and an under performing PCV system don't help the situation especially using conventional oils.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
One swap that might actually be somewhat feasible (though I know you were joking) is a J35 swap from a Ridgeline or older MDX like ours, or even a J37 swap from a newer MDX. These do not have VCM and are one of the smoothest V-6 engines you can find. And the "truck" versions of the V-6s have a cool 2" intake plenum spacer that is supposed to add low- and mid-range torque. A number of Accord folks have added the plenum spacer to their V-6 engines with good results.
Yes, in the whole debacle, it was interesting how many years it took for VCM to migrate upstream to their premium line. Maybe they weren't sure they had the kinks worked out?
One swap that might actually be somewhat feasible (though I know you were joking) is a J35 swap from a Ridgeline or older MDX like ours, or even a J37 swap from a newer MDX. These do not have VCM and are one of the smoothest V-6 engines you can find. And the "truck" versions of the V-6s have a cool 2" intake plenum spacer that is supposed to add low- and mid-range torque. A number of Accord folks have added the plenum spacer to their V-6 engines with good results.
Yes, in the whole debacle, it was interesting how many years it took for VCM to migrate upstream to their premium line. Maybe they weren't sure they had the kinks worked out?
Honda was very smart in negotiating this settlement. The defect was originally called excess oil consumption which is the primary symptom and ultimate death mode for inattentive owners. They got it changed to "engine misfire" which is a less common symptom (only after the plugs are ruined) and they got all the four cyl cars thrown out. They of course don't have VCM but one of the two original plaintiffs had a 4 cyl Accord that had excessive oil consumption. Also, there is no comp for the many owners who grew frustrated at Honda's stonewalling and just sold the [censored] things. Good job Honda! Keep that stock price up there!
They always claimed that they didn't use it in the performance division's cars (like the MDX and TL) because folks bought those cars for performance, not for fuel economy. Now that the VCM system has worked its way to the MDX (and possibly the TL, too, but I don't know for sure), that claim comes into question. At the very least, they changed their mind about it.
I think Honda's biggest mistake is the oil specification. It sounds like it's a system that puts a lot of stress on the oil, or removes a lot of the oil's capability freeboard. Continuing to recommend such a long oil change interval is what baffles me about Honda in this situation. Most information I've seen indicates that folks who ran MM intervals with conventional oil are the ones who were more likely to have the issues. Those running 5k mile OCIs with Mobil 1 were almost always exempt from problems. This tells me that while the system might not necessarily be classified as "defective", I think at best Honda has made an inappropriate oil/OCI recommendation here.
If I owned one, I certainly wouldn't follow the MM. I'd do 5k mile oil changes on a good synthetic oil. And I'd probably drive it for 200,000 problem-free miles, too. Conventional oil at 10,000 miles is apparently pushing the envelope too far. The unfortunate thing for owners, obviously, is they're simply following Honda's recommendations. I don't necessarily have a problem with the VCM itself. I think it's an interesting idea and the technology isn't exactly exclusive to Honda here. What I do have a problem with is the oil/OCI recommendation.
It's okay to recommend something different for some of your models. Chrysler never moved the 3.5/4.0 V-6 engines to 5W-20, for example. They stayed on 5w30 while most of the rest of the line went to 5W-20. Why? It's likely that only Chrysler knows. My guess is they, for any number of reasons, felt that 5w30 offered some level of protection for that particular engine that 5W-20 couldn't offer. At least not without enough headroom. So while much of the rest of the fleet (including the very old school OHV 3.3/3.8 V-6) moved to 5W-20, the 3.5/4.0 V-6 stayed with 5w30.
I don't see specifying a different grade or OCI as putting on a "band aid". I see it as specifying an appropriate grade or interval for the equipment in that vehicle. It appears, at least to me, that Honda specified an inappropriate grade and/or change interval for these VCM engines.
I think Honda's biggest mistake is the oil specification. It sounds like it's a system that puts a lot of stress on the oil, or removes a lot of the oil's capability freeboard. Continuing to recommend such a long oil change interval is what baffles me about Honda in this situation. Most information I've seen indicates that folks who ran MM intervals with conventional oil are the ones who were more likely to have the issues. Those running 5k mile OCIs with Mobil 1 were almost always exempt from problems. This tells me that while the system might not necessarily be classified as "defective", I think at best Honda has made an inappropriate oil/OCI recommendation here.
If I owned one, I certainly wouldn't follow the MM. I'd do 5k mile oil changes on a good synthetic oil. And I'd probably drive it for 200,000 problem-free miles, too. Conventional oil at 10,000 miles is apparently pushing the envelope too far. The unfortunate thing for owners, obviously, is they're simply following Honda's recommendations. I don't necessarily have a problem with the VCM itself. I think it's an interesting idea and the technology isn't exactly exclusive to Honda here. What I do have a problem with is the oil/OCI recommendation.
It's okay to recommend something different for some of your models. Chrysler never moved the 3.5/4.0 V-6 engines to 5W-20, for example. They stayed on 5w30 while most of the rest of the line went to 5W-20. Why? It's likely that only Chrysler knows. My guess is they, for any number of reasons, felt that 5w30 offered some level of protection for that particular engine that 5W-20 couldn't offer. At least not without enough headroom. So while much of the rest of the fleet (including the very old school OHV 3.3/3.8 V-6) moved to 5W-20, the 3.5/4.0 V-6 stayed with 5w30.
I don't see specifying a different grade or OCI as putting on a "band aid". I see it as specifying an appropriate grade or interval for the equipment in that vehicle. It appears, at least to me, that Honda specified an inappropriate grade and/or change interval for these VCM engines.
is Hounds an anagram for Hondus?
Jason, you know I respect your opinion and while you could be right about oil weight, that is not my suspicion. It's about oil migrating from the oil reservoir below the pistons into the combustion chamber and out the tailpipe. Hence, the modified piston rings and moly in this critical site. If you have a V6 and only one bank is getting fire for any length of time (on the highway), you're going to get temp differentials and who knows what else. It's a difficult technology to conquer. The mpgs are real, at least on the sticker. Knowing about VCM after the Accord purchase, when it came time to replace the minivan, we didn't even shop Honda and bought the Toyota Sienna even though the Odyssey is rated at 15% higher mpg on the highway.
The Toyota comes from the factory with 0W-20 and 10,000 mile OCI recommendations with no OLM! But in this application, the V6 rarely exceeds 3,000 RPM and the oil is very lightly stressed. It works.
On our Accord, after learning about VCM issues, I have religiously followed factory recommendations and even used Honda Genuine Full Synthetic Oil (with full documentation). Upon learning that Honda redesigned the pistons to include impregnated moly and insisted on full length OCIs, I switched to SM Toyota 0W-20, known as a high moly oil.
The Toyota comes from the factory with 0W-20 and 10,000 mile OCI recommendations with no OLM! But in this application, the V6 rarely exceeds 3,000 RPM and the oil is very lightly stressed. It works.
On our Accord, after learning about VCM issues, I have religiously followed factory recommendations and even used Honda Genuine Full Synthetic Oil (with full documentation). Upon learning that Honda redesigned the pistons to include impregnated moly and insisted on full length OCIs, I switched to SM Toyota 0W-20, known as a high moly oil.
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FWIW, I agree with Trav and Jason WRT Honda's VCM mechanical issues. But, respectfully, gentlemen, I humbly suggest you need to dig out HMC's (and TM's) annual financial reports to understand what's at stake here. You'll soon see that Honda and Toyota make tens of millions annually selling the energy credits the two companies earn by exceeding the govt's mandated CAFE requirements. Selling energy credits is a major source of income for both companies, and it has been since the corporate average fuel economy requirements were first enacted. IMHO, this explains why HMC has embraced (and expanded) VCM as a principal fuel-saving strategy in the face of some acceptable percentage of potential engine problems and the occasional class-action lawsuit.
Good. More Corvettes. This is a great example of unintended consequences brought on by government meddling in markets.
Honda is walking a fine line on damaging their reputation because they have stonewalled ALL the early guinea pigs. I don't know how many posts I've seen on various sites by long time Honda kool-aid drinkers on their fourth or fifth Honda who have sworn them off forever. My family bought the Accord as a first car for my daughter in part based on Honda's rep for reliability. I didn't find out about the history of VCM until afterwards. It is a very good car in all respects. I expect a Honda engine to go at least 200,000 miles without issues. I have serious concerns about any VCM getting there, unless the 2011 mods truly solved the problems.
Honda is walking a fine line on damaging their reputation because they have stonewalled ALL the early guinea pigs. I don't know how many posts I've seen on various sites by long time Honda kool-aid drinkers on their fourth or fifth Honda who have sworn them off forever. My family bought the Accord as a first car for my daughter in part based on Honda's rep for reliability. I didn't find out about the history of VCM until afterwards. It is a very good car in all respects. I expect a Honda engine to go at least 200,000 miles without issues. I have serious concerns about any VCM getting there, unless the 2011 mods truly solved the problems.
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
They always claimed that they didn't use it in the performance division's cars (like the MDX and TL) because folks bought those cars for performance, not for fuel economy. Now that the VCM system has worked its way to the MDX (and possibly the TL, too, but I don't know for sure), that claim comes into question. At the very least, they changed their mind about it.
I think Honda's biggest mistake is the oil specification. It sounds like it's a system that puts a lot of stress on the oil, or removes a lot of the oil's capability freeboard. Continuing to recommend such a long oil change interval is what baffles me about Honda in this situation. Most information I've seen indicates that folks who ran MM intervals with conventional oil are the ones who were more likely to have the issues. Those running 5k mile OCIs with Mobil 1 were almost always exempt from problems. This tells me that while the system might not necessarily be classified as "defective", I think at best Honda has made an inappropriate oil/OCI recommendation here.
If I owned one, I certainly wouldn't follow the MM. I'd do 5k mile oil changes on a good synthetic oil. And I'd probably drive it for 200,000 problem-free miles, too. Conventional oil at 10,000 miles is apparently pushing the envelope too far. The unfortunate thing for owners, obviously, is they're simply following Honda's recommendations. I don't necessarily have a problem with the VCM itself. I think it's an interesting idea and the technology isn't exactly exclusive to Honda here. What I do have a problem with is the oil/OCI recommendation.
It's okay to recommend something different for some of your models. Chrysler never moved the 3.5/4.0 V-6 engines to 5W-20, for example. They stayed on 5w30 while most of the rest of the line went to 5W-20. Why? It's likely that only Chrysler knows. My guess is they, for any number of reasons, felt that 5w30 offered some level of protection for that particular engine that 5W-20 couldn't offer. At least not without enough headroom. So while much of the rest of the fleet (including the very old school OHV 3.3/3.8 V-6) moved to 5W-20, the 3.5/4.0 V-6 stayed with 5w30.
I don't see specifying a different grade or OCI as putting on a "band aid". I see it as specifying an appropriate grade or interval for the equipment in that vehicle. It appears, at least to me, that Honda specified an inappropriate grade and/or change interval for these VCM engines.
Actually, the 3.5 V6, at least through 2007, called for 10W-30 oil!
They always claimed that they didn't use it in the performance division's cars (like the MDX and TL) because folks bought those cars for performance, not for fuel economy. Now that the VCM system has worked its way to the MDX (and possibly the TL, too, but I don't know for sure), that claim comes into question. At the very least, they changed their mind about it.
I think Honda's biggest mistake is the oil specification. It sounds like it's a system that puts a lot of stress on the oil, or removes a lot of the oil's capability freeboard. Continuing to recommend such a long oil change interval is what baffles me about Honda in this situation. Most information I've seen indicates that folks who ran MM intervals with conventional oil are the ones who were more likely to have the issues. Those running 5k mile OCIs with Mobil 1 were almost always exempt from problems. This tells me that while the system might not necessarily be classified as "defective", I think at best Honda has made an inappropriate oil/OCI recommendation here.
If I owned one, I certainly wouldn't follow the MM. I'd do 5k mile oil changes on a good synthetic oil. And I'd probably drive it for 200,000 problem-free miles, too. Conventional oil at 10,000 miles is apparently pushing the envelope too far. The unfortunate thing for owners, obviously, is they're simply following Honda's recommendations. I don't necessarily have a problem with the VCM itself. I think it's an interesting idea and the technology isn't exactly exclusive to Honda here. What I do have a problem with is the oil/OCI recommendation.
It's okay to recommend something different for some of your models. Chrysler never moved the 3.5/4.0 V-6 engines to 5W-20, for example. They stayed on 5w30 while most of the rest of the line went to 5W-20. Why? It's likely that only Chrysler knows. My guess is they, for any number of reasons, felt that 5w30 offered some level of protection for that particular engine that 5W-20 couldn't offer. At least not without enough headroom. So while much of the rest of the fleet (including the very old school OHV 3.3/3.8 V-6) moved to 5W-20, the 3.5/4.0 V-6 stayed with 5w30.
I don't see specifying a different grade or OCI as putting on a "band aid". I see it as specifying an appropriate grade or interval for the equipment in that vehicle. It appears, at least to me, that Honda specified an inappropriate grade and/or change interval for these VCM engines.
Actually, the 3.5 V6, at least through 2007, called for 10W-30 oil!
Why 10w30?
Are any other companies having problems with Variable Cylinder/Displacement engines?
Are any other companies having problems with Variable Cylinder/Displacement engines?
Ah, yes! 10w30; you are correct. I think they stayed with 10w30 because it was more shear stable than conventional 5w30.
I remember when the Northstar engines went from 10w30 in 1999 I think it was to 5w30 in 2000. The reason given was that the first generation engines used flat bucket lifters on the valves, and that 10w30 offered better shear stability in that environment. The second generation engines in 2000 went to roller lifters, which was supposed to be easier on the oil, enough that they could recommend 5w30 instead of 10w30.
Does Chrysler's 3.5L V-6 use flat bucket lifters, or roller lifters?
I remember when the Northstar engines went from 10w30 in 1999 I think it was to 5w30 in 2000. The reason given was that the first generation engines used flat bucket lifters on the valves, and that 10w30 offered better shear stability in that environment. The second generation engines in 2000 went to roller lifters, which was supposed to be easier on the oil, enough that they could recommend 5w30 instead of 10w30.
Does Chrysler's 3.5L V-6 use flat bucket lifters, or roller lifters?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
I expect a Honda engine to go at least 200,000 miles without issues.
These days we expect ANY engine to go this far especially if we got it new. In recent memory I have only had one fleet engine fail prior to 200k miles in many many years...
I expect a Honda engine to go at least 200,000 miles without issues.
These days we expect ANY engine to go this far especially if we got it new. In recent memory I have only had one fleet engine fail prior to 200k miles in many many years...
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