Help picking an oil for a heavily modified engine

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32
Location
Ohio
I need some input from the folks here who actually know what the heck they are talking about, most of the people on my main forum and IRL keep shouting around vastly differing opinions on what should be run in my particular high performance engine. Engine is a Chrysler 360 magnum (basically a LA or A engine with new heads if you don't know what the magnum is) based 408 stroker with 10:1 compression, Total Seal AP steel rings NOT GAPLESS. Cam is a 224/[email protected] .50 with .578/.580 Lift cam with a hair over 300LB open pressure and 140lb seat pressure with a full roller valve-train including hardened pushrods. Cam is made of austempered ductile iron with a "soft" steel distributor drive gear. Oil system has been de-bured and cleaned up with the pump (Melling high volume type) inspected and matched up to the rear main cap. Oil clearances are set to exactly the "middle" of the stock FSM rebuild spec (.0005-.0022 inch for rods, .0005-.0015 inch main #1 and .0005-.002 inch for mains #2-#5). There will be a large oil cooler and oil accumulator to help expand the amount of oil available and keep temps down. Overall the power factor has been raised up from the stock 240/335 hp/tq to 430/480 with the NA 408 and this go around it will be around 640/660 hp/tq. Final goal is 760/700 once the R3 block is ready (I will blow the caps on a stock block past 500whp, 600whp goal.) NOT A FLAT TAPPET ENGINE. AGAIN, FULL ROLLER. There is a Paxton NOVI2000 supercharger present up top that will be sharing oil with the engine as well as hitting with up to 18psi boost, please keep that in mind. So far Brad Penn "Green oil" in 10w-30, Amsoil Z-rod 10w-30, Amsoil Domninator 10w-30, and Valvoline VR1 10w-30 have all been suggested and hotly debated by several people and so far the Brad Penn blend is "Winning" in my brain since it appears that several full race engines from my main tech adviser and machinist have had nearly zero wear on them after a season of races but the issue is my application is NOT a race car. I am simply building a very hot street car, I can't change the oil after every race or some crazy short interval like 300 miles. I personally do not want a ester based oil like redline for several reasons involving seals and gasket materials.
 
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7,485
Location
S California
Stick with what your machinist advises. Just about any synthetic 10w-40 should do fine. Call Dave or anyone else in tech assistance at Red Line about your materials/seals issues. They will tell you what's best for your situation and not just try to tell you something. It's possible that you don't have an issue with ester based oils.
 
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25,145
Location
Dallas,Tx USA
The VR1 is actually advertised to be used in high performance daily driver passenger cars. That one I'm guessing would be the most "practical" since it's not a strictly racing only oil.
 

Striker2237

Thread starter
Messages
32
Location
Ohio
[censored] almost forgot, .0060 ring gap I think. I'll consult my build sheet tomorrow and give a hard answer but lets assume that it's .0060 for now. Also cylinder walls have the recommended finish for the AP rings so they are on the more "wet" side of oil retention. Napier 2nd ring if that matters at all.....
 
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Striker2237

Thread starter
Messages
32
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Stick with what your machinist advises. Just about any synthetic 10w-40 should do fine. Call Dave or anyone else in tech assistance at Red Line about your materials/seals issues. They will tell you what's best for your situation and not just try to tell you something. It's possible that you don't have an issue with ester based oils.
I'm curious as to why you suggest a 10w-40?
 

CT8

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15,392
Location
Idaho
Call me old fashioned but..I would go with the machinist builder/recommended oil because they see what works and what doesn't. The engine sounds like it will be a monster.
 
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13,459
Location
North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Striker2237
[censored] almost forgot, .0060 ring gap I think. I'll consult my build sheet tomorrow and give a hard answer but lets assume that it's .0060 for now. Also cylinder walls have the recommended finish for the AP rings so they are on the more "wet" side of oil retention. Napier 2nd ring if that matters at all.....
That number does not sound right. For most engines its .003-.004 PER inch of bore. .006 PER inch of bore for nitrous/blown. So that means your ring gap for a blown 360 chrysler should be around .024 ( assuming a 4.0-4.1 inch bore) I'd base the oil on what main and rod bearing clearance is. That might be what would matter more that piston ring gap. Since its not far from stock bearing clearance , I'd run a 40w oil. A 30wt would probably be fine, unless it shears down. But I would ask the builder what weight oil to run.
 
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Striker2237

Thread starter
Messages
32
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: Striker2237
[censored] almost forgot, .0060 ring gap I think. I'll consult my build sheet tomorrow and give a hard answer but lets assume that it's .0060 for now. Also cylinder walls have the recommended finish for the AP rings so they are on the more "wet" side of oil retention. Napier 2nd ring if that matters at all.....
That number does not sound right. For most engines its .003-.004 PER inch of bore. .006 PER inch of bore for nitrous/blown. So that means you ring gap for a blown 360 chrysler should be around .024 ( assuming a 4.0-4.1 inch bore) I'd base the oil on what main and rod bearing clearance is. That might be what would matter more that piston ring gap. Since its not far from stock bearing clearance , i'd run a 40w oil but I would ask the builder what weight oil to run.
You are right, sheet says .027 lol! Looks like my brain typed in the rule and not the actual spec!
 
Messages
43,676
Location
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Striker2237
So far Brad Penn "Green oil" in 10w-30, Amsoil Z-rod 10w-30, Amsoil Domninator 10w-30, and Valvoline VR1 10w-30 have all been suggested and hotly debated by several people and so far the Brad Penn blend is "Winning" in my brain since it appears that several full race engines from my main tech adviser and machinist have had nearly zero wear on them after a season of races but the issue is my application is NOT a race car. I am simply building a very hot street car, I can't change the oil after every race or some crazy short interval like 300 miles. I personally do not want a ester based oil like redline for several reasons involving seals and gasket materials.
Brad Penn 10W30 has an HTHS of 3.54...and appears to have no Viscosity Index Improvers...pick that.
 
Messages
4,059
Location
Chicago, IL
based on your bearing clearances, 10w-30 sounds correct. Certainly Brad Penn is a good choice. My machinist recommended and sells alot of VR1. I also will use Amsoil.
 
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6,235
Location
Kalifornia Kollective
OK, I'll freely admit I do not build hot Chryslers. I used to run a D-Gas Valiant back in the day with a seriously warmed over 273. But other than the odd 440 marine engine, I have not touched one in 25 years ... But I do build hot BBC's and the odd SBC/SBF... And because I play with those crazy chebie guys I have seen some cam failures (soft cores) and more lifter failures (you did not say if yours are roller bearing or trunion...). So is the oil pump as it came from the box, or did you put the lightest relief spring in it? I run HV pumps, but never let them build over 60 PSI because they burden the cam gears too much if the pressure (resistance) gets too high. So I'd think one possible failure area is the dizzy drive gear. I usually slot cut the bottom boss on the dizzy with a hack saw blade to about 0.020" deep so it will drool on the drive gears at all times. You have a HV pump, so you have plenty of oil to feed these little drool spots smile Then you have a blower which can help you make big TQ numbers at low speed. That is a recipe for high rod loads and the "squeeze" that puts on the oil film on the journals. It's one reason turbos are so successful, they usually can't spool up at 1,800 RPM. But your motor can come in at maybe slightly higher. So no matter what oil you pick, you want very robust HTHS numbers. That's the critical thing for this engine - film strength. 300# over the nose is not going to be hard on the valve train. That's not much above OEM performance numbers smile Your bearing clearances are good for SAE 30. If the piston to wall numbers are not awful, I'd be looking at Chevron Delo400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) oil. Narrow spread, not much in the way of VII's. Balanced dino and Grp III blend as far as I can tell... Big add pak. Maybe consider Rotella T6 5W-40 or Delo400 15W-40 for summer and fall do to the higher ambient temps... Your rod loads are approaching diesel engine numbers under boost. HDEO's can get that job done and have for decades. I'd do two changes a year. The biggest WIX/Baldwin filter that will fit. Magnetic drain plug. Glue a magnet to the filter housing and and cut that baby open each change for a while. The magnet will localize any Fe metals on one side for easy viewing. I'm not concerned with filtration efficiency. It's good enough. I want flow through media and I want strength to hold up to the HV pump. Get some UOA's as you go along and see what is colloidal or microscopic. Pull the dizzy every 2,500 and look at the gears until you know it's not shedding. As far as crowd sourced knowledge, here is a survey/poll I ran over at Chevelles.com about oil choices among folks that build some potent engines. Some of these cars are in the 8's with full steel bodies and roll-up glass. Most are regular street driven. Some have blowers. NOS is common ... http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-performance/831521-what-oil-do-you-use.html VR-1 was/is the hands down winner by roughly 2:1 over it's next rival - Mobil1. Brad Penn was in the hunt though. We can't buy VR-1 in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia any more, so I have switched to Delo 15W-30 SD. Have fun laugh
 
Messages
41
Location
Conroe, TX
Rotella T6 all day!!! Every LS builder I know trusts their valve trains and cams to Rotella. It's never let me down no matter how hard I've beaten or boosted a motor.
 
You say the engine is a full roller, which is good because it throws the concern with zddp out the window. I would use Mobil 1 0W40 or 15W-50, since you are going with a supercharger and the engine will share the oil with the blower, and i would change the oil frequently.
 
Messages
481
Location
CT
If your builder is the kinda guy that stands behind his work I would run what he recommends.If something goes south there wont be any reason for him to say you used what he thinks was the "wrong" oil. What did he recommend? And since you have lots of money tied up in this I think it would be a good idea to get UOA on the oil as you go to make sure its working for you. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
 
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Striker2237

Thread starter
Messages
32
Location
Ohio
Originally Posted By: CrAlt
If your builder is the kinda guy that stands behind his work I would run what he recommends.If something goes south there wont be any reason for him to say you used what he thinks was the "wrong" oil. What did he recommend? And since you have lots of money tied up in this I think it would be a good idea to get UOA on the oil as you go to make sure its working for you. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
My builder and tech guys both like Brad Penn ALOT. He stand by his work very very well, awesome to have a excellent local shop. I plan on getting at least 3 analysis done. One after 20 minutes, one after 50 miles hard brake in, and a final one after two nights at the track and 500 miles.
 
Messages
13,459
Location
North Carolina
The first two may be a waste of money. They will show elevated copper from cam bearings and iron from the rings seating. The uoa at 500 miles will still probably be elevated, but you can look at the cst numbers and see if the oil shears down.
 
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