Heat Pump in Northern Climates?

[alarmguy]

Enjoy your cheap natural gas! I can’t think of anything else other than that article was inaccurate. Does anyone else from SC want to share what they pay for natural gas?

Yeah, my thoughts exactly and why I haven't thought about it too much more!
I was just going on the information you provided but I dont have enough interest to spend too much time on the "why" except your calculations or interpretation for the calculations (Metric, imperial standard, since you are in Canada?) or the website itself you provided is wrong.

As I posted previously I don't know much about my gas bill, until this thread I never paid much attention except for energy savings year over year.
Not that I dont want to try to figure it out and learn from it as soon as if ever I find the time

Right now I am PISSED as heck as I just updated all my Apple devices to the new Monterey system and the Logitech APPLE bluetooth keyboard is not working correctly with cmd buttons ect.

 

[alarmguy]

Solar loading does make a large difference. I have some unshaded west facing windows and when the sun lines up with them in the late afternoon my 3.5 ton unit is pretty much overwhelmed and I have to program my indoor temp to go up until sunset.

Same here but no problem with the A/C Im guessing around 3.5 ton but in summer we have a second floor unit around the same 3+ ton. We are facing west too, these windows are larger then they appear in the photo. We also have 6 double hung in the adjacent sunroom unshaded. Heat of the day it can get a little warmer in there.
Lucky for us around 5 or 6 ish on summer nights the trees behind the house shade the rooms. Also when the house was built 15 years ago we had "Mr Tint" come in and install 3M Nightvision 35 on all 14 West Facing windows, At the time that we did it we were more concerned about UV light ruining the furniture, energy savings were a big plus too. I was concerned about the tint changing color or degrading, well, the salesperson was correct about that, its 3M and doesnt do that and we are amazed to this day, stuff like even that sofa in the photo has not faded. Let me tell you, the sun here in SC is strong too!
I expected 10+ years out of it, well we are up to 15 years now and all seems good still.
I know the day will come where it gets replaced, maybe 5 more years? The newer films I think are also better at filtering red wavelength but cant confirm.
Due west is almost the angle of the photo but more like 280 degrees instead of 270, 270 would have been if I moved every so slightly more towards the center. (I jsut checked with a compass)

 

[Snagglefoot]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly and why I haven't thought about it too much more!
I was just going on the information you provided but I dont have enough interest to spend too much time on the "why" except your calculations or interpretation for the calculations (Metric, imperial standard, since you are in Canada?) or the website itself you provided is wrong.

As I posted previously I don't know much about my gas bill, until this thread I never paid much attention except for energy savings year over year.
Not that I dont want to try to figure it out and learn from it as soon as if ever I find the time

Right now I am PISSED as heck as I just updated all my Apple devices to the new Monterey system and the Logitech APPLE bluetooth keyboard is not working correctly with cmd buttons ect.

Yep, I noticed US natural gas bills are usually Therms or per 1000 cf. ( cubic ft) One therm is about 100 cf and 10 therms are about 1000 cf. All good.

Canadian gas bills are usually in Giga Joules. ( GJ) or Jee Jays. For all intents and purposes 1,000 ft of gas is one GJ which is a very handy conversion. Up here in BC we pay about $15 CDN per GJ with after converting to US dollars at 0.8 and converting to Therms is about $1.20 per Therm. The province of Alberta is our source. Over half the cost is delivery charges through the pipeline network ( plus the carbon tax that is maliciously hidden in the cost, that I can’t talk about).

Good luck with that computer!

 

[PWMDMD]

Just so people understand how far HPs have come - it's is 22F here, the AH is in unconditioned attic space and I just measured the supply vent temp at 99.6F.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Just so people understand how far HPs have come - it's is 22F here, the AH is in unconditioned attic space and I just measured the supply vent temp at 99.6F.

Roger that. It’s 18 F right now and I’m running on propane. As soon as it is 27 F the heat pump will take over. ( not quite as good as yours).

 

[alarmguy]

Just so people understand how far HPs have come - it's is 22F here, the AH is in unconditioned attic space and I just measured the supply vent temp at 99.6F.

I understand what you are saying and all is good. I dont disagree as posted I have a HP on the second floor, rarely used but its there.

But the efficiency isnt there at those temperatures, maybe better said, measuring the supply vent temp isnt an indication of efficiency.
I suspect you know the difference but many people doing it in that method may not even know there are (back up) aux. heat element coils for when the heat pump cant produce those 99 degree temperatures so they maybe thinking the heat pump is doing it when in fact its just standard electric coils doing the job.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I understand what you are saying and all is good. I dont disagree as posted I have a HP on the second floor, rarely used but its there.

But the efficiency isnt there at those temperatures, maybe better said, measuring the supply vent temp isnt an indication of efficiency.
I suspect you know the difference but many people doing it in that method may not even know there are (back up) aux. heat element coils for when the heat pump cant produce those 99 degree temperatures so they maybe thinking the heat pump is doing it when in fact its just standard electric coils doing the job.

In most cases the COP ( coefficient of performance) is still 2 at those temps) . It would be 3 or more at higher temps. But, yes, for instance there is a government driven effort to get heat pumps installed in the Columbia Valley of SE BC next to province of Alberta. The administrators live in the lower mainland where heat pumps operate at temps above freezing. They say, it doesn’t matter because “there are resistance heating coils as backup”. Not very cost effective, but if you can get the right heat pump, you can get it to work. I’m presently working with suppliers to try find a reasonably priced heat pump where the comprssor runs at 14 F. That would be the holy grail here and would mean the heat pump is doing its job 90% of the time during the winter.

This area has no access to natural gas, so it would be great to use our cheap electricity to get off propane. Most of BC’s electricity comes from power dams.

The vent heat is sort of a reflection of the heat pumps ability to deliver energy. As the outside temp goes down, the vent temp will start to lower, and of course it requires a longer run time until it’s running 100% of the time. This occurs at 27F for me and the vent temp drops to about 85 F. Still doable and still cheaper than resistance heating.

 

[Snagglefoot]

So far the low temp prize goes to PWMDMD with an ambient temp of 22 F. It anyone else running at 17 F with their compressor ( not resistance coils)?

I’m trying to find someone with experience running their central heating system with a heat pump at 17F or lower so I can help out those government folks. This is for a main system and not mini splits.

 

[PWMDMD]

So far the low temp prize goes to PWMDMD with an ambient temp of 22 F. It anyone else running at 17 F with their compressor ( not resistance coils)?

I’m trying to find someone with experience running their central heating system with a heat pump at 17F or lower so I can help out those government folks. This is for a main system and not mini splits.

I can easily adjust it all the way down to -5F. Next cold snap and I'll lower it to 15F for ****s and giggles and see what happens.

 

[PWMDMD]

I understand what you are saying and all is good. I dont disagree as posted I have a HP on the second floor, rarely used but its there.

But the efficiency isnt there at those temperatures, maybe better said, measuring the supply vent temp isnt an indication of efficiency.
I suspect you know the difference but many people doing it in that method may not even know there are (back up) aux. heat element coils for when the heat pump cant produce those 99 degree temperatures so they maybe thinking the heat pump is doing it when in fact its just standard electric coils doing the job.

From my electric bill: Summer AC set on 68F and winter heat set on 64F:

Difference 2021-2021
Nov 2021 - 1571 kWh 56 kWh/day - $219.94 $35.28
October 2021 - 1715 kWh 57 kWh/day - $240.10 ($18.48)
September 2021 2219 kWh 67 kWh/day - $310.66 $4.48
August 2021 2001 kWh 66 kWh/day - $280.14 ($96.88)
July 2021 2127 kWh 68 kWh/day - $297.78 ($118.44)
June 2021 1936 kWh 60 kWh/day - $271.04 ($80.64)
May 2021 1180 kWh 42 kWh/day - $165.20 ($23.10)

**New HP system was installed**

April 2021 - 1572 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $220.08
March 2021 - 1505 kWh - 51 kWh/day - $210.70
February 2021 - 1685 kWh - 52 kWh/day - $235.90
January 2021 - 1436 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $201.04
December 2020 - 1442 kWh - 49 kWh/day - $201.88
November 2020 - 1319 kWh - 50 kWh/day - $184.66
October 2020 - 1847 kWh - 53 kWh/day - $258.58
September 2020 - 2187 kWh - 75 kWh/day - $306.18
August 2020 - 2693 kWh - 99 kWh/day - $377.02
July 2020 - 2973 kWh - 82 kWh/day - $416.22
June 2020 - 2512 kWh - 54 kWh/day - $351.68
May 2020 - 1345 kWh - 48 kWh/day- $188.30

November 2020 I averaged 6.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $576.60 for the month (Ave temp 44.6F)
November 2021 I averaged 4.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $390.60 for the month (Ave temp 40.5F)

So the heat pump costs me $35.28 more in electricity but $186.00 less in oil. Average low temp November 2021 was 31F. I will update when December numbers are in.

 

[racin4ds]

We're in North central Florida and see several nights below freezing and I can tell you its all our 5 ton heat pump can do to keep up sometimes. I also have a 10kW emergency heat strip and it does come on some nights when the temps are unusually cold so I would advise against heat pumps in ND!!! You can watch that meter spin when its on for sure! $$$

 

[racin4ds]

Dont ask me what this means, all I know is to me, winter heat is cheap in our 3000 SqFt home built in 2006. Guess Im lucky, used to live in an oil heated much smaller home on Long Island, NY for most my life and in decades and decades I still do not pay more for energy since moving south in 2006, Gas or Electric to me is dirt cheap.

As previously stated we have Gas Hot Air on the Main Level, Heat Pump on the second. Since heat rises, its a perfect set up, we almost NEVER run the heat pump in the winter anymore on the second level now that the kids are off in their own place. Wife does ahve a second floor office and I too but I guess with the insulation we have, even in winter since heat rises its warmer up here then the main level. Heat Pump will go on in the most cold extreme weather where daytime highs may not get above freezing or above 40 degrees or if we have company sleeping over.
I never much paid attention to my gas bill like I do electric... so not really understanding it all except it seems cheap.

Here is a PDF of the main part of the heating season if it helps anyone or would love to hear some comments if someone understand it. I just dont see how it can get any less expensive. A good part of our home also has 16 foot ceilings on main level and roughly 22 Windows total. When house was first built I did have the builder send back the insulation company as they cheated on how much cellulose insulation was blown in. I also spent a week or more on my own in the attics fixing things up better/adding insulation/sealing open spaces in part of the attic..
AS you can see Jan 2020 was a very warm winter so Jan 2021 is more normal.

View attachment 80315
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Just for the heck of it, here is our electric bill for two of the coldest months (keep in mind the higher one also includes Christmas lights ect);
View attachment 80317

View attachment 80318

You guys have some cheap electricity in SC!!!! Wow.... here in Florida I have SECO and our cheapest bill ever just came this month at $149.00. This was due to a full coil service of our AC/HP unit and no pool anymore. In the summer we regularly see $280-320 bills and keep thermostat set at 77-78* so it isn't like we keep the place cold. 2300 Sq/Ft single level ranch home built in 06 with 2x6 walls and very well insulated.

 

[alarmguy]

You guys have some cheap electricity in SC!!!! Wow.... here in Florida I have SECO and our cheapest bill ever just came this month at $149.00. This was due to a full coil service of our AC/HP unit and no pool anymore. In the summer we regularly see $280-320 bills and keep thermostat set at 77-78* so it isn't like we keep the place cold. 2300 Sq/Ft single level ranch home built in 06 with 2x6 walls and very well insulated.

Yes! Its a big break from my home state before moving here, actually that goes for everything including taxes. My Long Island Electric rate was 20 cents a KWH when we moved south 15 years ago.
Here as you can see, we are at 5 cents a KWH but then take huge hit at $12 KWH for 3 hours a day peak. Still works out for us very well and end up around 10 cents KWH or so. We actually pay less for electricity here then we did in NY and in NY many times we would open windows, we never open them here.
I had NO IDEA rates were so high there. We REALLY love Florida, been going there since being a kid, ummmm ... many decades ago, have some distant family there and we now, many decades later regularly vacation there from St Augustine to Panama to Destin. Might even move there one day but I have to tell you, the housing has shot up like a rocket there and kind of turned us off now.

As a kid spent much time in the Miami area both in relatives homes and the resort areas, as well as the Tampa area.

Im not sure where you are in Florida but our high summer temperatures are the same and slightly higher then Florida here in the Midlands of South Carolina.

 

[alarmguy]

From my electric bill: Summer AC set on 68F and winter heat set on 64F:

Difference 2021-2021
Nov 2021 - 1571 kWh 56 kWh/day - $219.94 $35.28
October 2021 - 1715 kWh 57 kWh/day - $240.10 ($18.48)
September 2021 2219 kWh 67 kWh/day - $310.66 $4.48
August 2021 2001 kWh 66 kWh/day - $280.14 ($96.88)
July 2021 2127 kWh 68 kWh/day - $297.78 ($118.44)
June 2021 1936 kWh 60 kWh/day - $271.04 ($80.64)
May 2021 1180 kWh 42 kWh/day - $165.20 ($23.10)

**New HP system was installed**

April 2021 - 1572 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $220.08
March 2021 - 1505 kWh - 51 kWh/day - $210.70
February 2021 - 1685 kWh - 52 kWh/day - $235.90
January 2021 - 1436 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $201.04
December 2020 - 1442 kWh - 49 kWh/day - $201.88
November 2020 - 1319 kWh - 50 kWh/day - $184.66
October 2020 - 1847 kWh - 53 kWh/day - $258.58
September 2020 - 2187 kWh - 75 kWh/day - $306.18
August 2020 - 2693 kWh - 99 kWh/day - $377.02
July 2020 - 2973 kWh - 82 kWh/day - $416.22
June 2020 - 2512 kWh - 54 kWh/day - $351.68
May 2020 - 1345 kWh - 48 kWh/day- $188.30

November 2020 I averaged 6.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $576.60 for the month (Ave temp 44.6F)
November 2021 I averaged 4.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $390.60 for the month (Ave temp 40.5F)

So the heat pump costs me $35.28 more in electricity but $186.00 less in oil. Average low temp November 2021 was 31F. I will update when December numbers are in.

Sorry, trying to understand this post but Im not. From what I think I see you replaced your heat pump is April 2021? and you are showing the electric savings during the warm weather?
So you had an older heat pump as well as an older oil heat system and now replaced the old HP with a new in April/May 2021.

At any rate it nice to save money and live better while you do!

I do notice, assuming I am correct about what you posted here and honestly I have no idea if my assumption is correct. I also have no idea where in MA you live so I used the Boston area (Logan Airport stats)

July 2020 you had the old system, average July 2020 temperature in Boston that year was 82.8 (hot summer) Average July 2021 temperature was 79

Nov 2020 you had a average temperature of 52 within 1 degree of the historic average of 51
Nov 2021 you had t much warmer with a temp of 56 and again historic average of 51

Dont ask me what or how much impact this has on your costs *LOL* just something to consider, one thing for sure with a new unit you will save money!
Now that I am done answering, Im signing out and totally confused, been at this computer WAY to long today. Eyes are shot.

 

[PWMDMD]

Sorry, trying to understand this post but Im not. From what I think I see you replaced your heat pump is April 2021? and you are showing the electric savings during the warm weather?
So you had an older heat pump as well as an older oil heat system and now replaced the old HP with a new in April/May 2021.

At any rate it nice to save money and live better while you do!

I do notice, assuming I am correct about what you posted here and honestly I have no idea if my assumption is correct. I also have no idea where in MA you live so I used the Boston area (Logan Airport stats)

July 2020 you had the old system, average July 2020 temperature in Boston that year was 82.8 (hot summer) Average July 2021 temperature was 79

Nov 2020 you had a average temperature of 52 within 1 degree of the historic average of 51
Nov 2021 you had t much warmer with a temp of 56 and again historic average of 51

Dont ask me what or how much impact this has on your costs *LOL* just something to consider, one thing for sure with a new unit you will save money!
Now that I am done answering, Im signing out and totally confused, been at this computer WAY to long today. Eyes are shot.

I was just a comment about overall efficiency of newer HP with both cooling and heating. The previous unit was just an old AC, not a HP, and so heating was 100% oil-powered boiler. The key part is I'm spending much less on oil this November using the HP and only spending slightly more on electricity to run the HP. It's rated at a SEER of 20 and HSPF of 10.5.

I'm north of Worcester and so significantly colder than Boston. I'm interested to see how December shakes out since it's been cold here with lots of day with highs in the 30's and low's in the 20's and I'd like to see if even with the reduced efficiency of using a HP at colder temps if it still represents a significant savings over heating with 100% oil? My guess is it still will be a huge savings. At 22F outside the supply was almost 100F and so I think this HP system will easily go down 15F of 10F and still be a significantly savings over oil. Planning on this year being a bit of an experiment to determine the sweet spot with the switchover temp.

 

[dcd]

I have a 3 ton inverter heat pump scheduled to be installed next week. In addition to being more efficient and quiet, inverter HPs can produce more heat at lower temps by operating the pump at higher rpms.

You have to get the right model for that, as some are better than others. That wasn’t a huge driver for me in my moderate climate.

 

[Snagglefoot]

From my electric bill: Summer AC set on 68F and winter heat set on 64F:

Difference 2021-2021
Nov 2021 - 1571 kWh 56 kWh/day - $219.94 $35.28
October 2021 - 1715 kWh 57 kWh/day - $240.10 ($18.48)
September 2021 2219 kWh 67 kWh/day - $310.66 $4.48
August 2021 2001 kWh 66 kWh/day - $280.14 ($96.88)
July 2021 2127 kWh 68 kWh/day - $297.78 ($118.44)
June 2021 1936 kWh 60 kWh/day - $271.04 ($80.64)
May 2021 1180 kWh 42 kWh/day - $165.20 ($23.10)

**New HP system was installed**

April 2021 - 1572 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $220.08
March 2021 - 1505 kWh - 51 kWh/day - $210.70
February 2021 - 1685 kWh - 52 kWh/day - $235.90
January 2021 - 1436 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $201.04
December 2020 - 1442 kWh - 49 kWh/day - $201.88
November 2020 - 1319 kWh - 50 kWh/day - $184.66
October 2020 - 1847 kWh - 53 kWh/day - $258.58
September 2020 - 2187 kWh - 75 kWh/day - $306.18
August 2020 - 2693 kWh - 99 kWh/day - $377.02
July 2020 - 2973 kWh - 82 kWh/day - $416.22
June 2020 - 2512 kWh - 54 kWh/day - $351.68
May 2020 - 1345 kWh - 48 kWh/day- $188.30

November 2020 I averaged 6.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $576.60 for the month (Ave temp 44.6F)
November 2021 I averaged 4.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $390.60 for the month (Ave temp 40.5F)

So the heat pump costs me $35.28 more in electricity but $186.00 less in oil. Average low temp November 2021 was 31F. I will update when December numbers are in.

That is excellent data. You are entitled to remove the summer’s out and just include months you were previously burning oil. The % saving will be greater.

 

[Snagglefoot]

From my electric bill: Summer AC set on 68F and winter heat set on 64F:

Difference 2021-2021
Nov 2021 - 1571 kWh 56 kWh/day - $219.94 $35.28
October 2021 - 1715 kWh 57 kWh/day - $240.10 ($18.48)
September 2021 2219 kWh 67 kWh/day - $310.66 $4.48
August 2021 2001 kWh 66 kWh/day - $280.14 ($96.88)
July 2021 2127 kWh 68 kWh/day - $297.78 ($118.44)
June 2021 1936 kWh 60 kWh/day - $271.04 ($80.64)
May 2021 1180 kWh 42 kWh/day - $165.20 ($23.10)

**New HP system was installed**

April 2021 - 1572 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $220.08
March 2021 - 1505 kWh - 51 kWh/day - $210.70
February 2021 - 1685 kWh - 52 kWh/day - $235.90
January 2021 - 1436 kWh - 47 kWh/day - $201.04
December 2020 - 1442 kWh - 49 kWh/day - $201.88
November 2020 - 1319 kWh - 50 kWh/day - $184.66
October 2020 - 1847 kWh - 53 kWh/day - $258.58
September 2020 - 2187 kWh - 75 kWh/day - $306.18
August 2020 - 2693 kWh - 99 kWh/day - $377.02
July 2020 - 2973 kWh - 82 kWh/day - $416.22
June 2020 - 2512 kWh - 54 kWh/day - $351.68
May 2020 - 1345 kWh - 48 kWh/day- $188.30

November 2020 I averaged 6.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $576.60 for the month (Ave temp 44.6F)
November 2021 I averaged 4.2 gallons/day of oil used and at today's price that cost $390.60 for the month (Ave temp 40.5F)

So the heat pump costs me $35.28 more in electricity but $186.00 less in oil. Average low temp November 2021 was 31F. I will update when December numbers are in.

I’m thinking your new pump has a much higher SEER rating than your old one. It’s summer cooling efficiency is higher. Double bonus!

 

[alarmguy]

I was just a comment about overall efficiency of newer HP with both cooling and heating. The previous unit was just an old AC, not a HP, and so heating was 100% oil-powered boiler. The key part is I'm spending much less on oil this November using the HP and only spending slightly more on electricity to run the HP. It's rated at a SEER of 20 and HSPF of 10.5.

I'm north of Worcester and so significantly colder than Boston. I'm interested to see how December shakes out since it's been cold here with lots of day with highs in the 30's and low's in the 20's and I'd like to see if even with the reduced efficiency of using a HP at colder temps if it still represents a significant savings over heating with 100% oil? My guess is it still will be a huge savings. At 22F outside the supply was almost 100F and so I think this HP system will easily go down 15F of 10F and still be a significantly savings over oil. Planning on this year being a bit of an experiment to determine the sweet spot with the switchover temp.

Very cool, or should I say warm?
Yeah, I would be excited about what the savings maybe. It will be a fun winter for you!
Im not cheap by any means (trust me on that) BUT I love cutting what I pay to utilities/Ins/ect/ect of all kinds to the last dollar. I just dont like handing unchecked my after tax income to companies that supply utilities to my house over a lifetime.
The savings over a life time can, well, bought me a new Harley back in 2014, knock 10 years off a mortgage and at the same time, continue to buy everything else I could want in life (within reason)

Its fun, being we moved south 15 years ago from Long Island, the house for the most part was as efficient as I could get for a new production building home but even as it was being built I bought a roll of insulation and went over the entire job the insulating guys did before the drywall went up. After the house was built, not trusting the right amount of insulation was blown in the attics, I measured it, yup, insulation company sent a crew back to blow more in. I caught them, they put a cardboard ruler in the attic showing the correct insulation but it was bent at the bottom by a couple inches!
Since then, even only a few years back, I went over a tricky area of the attic wear a second floor room protrudes into it, spent days snugging it up (actually found an unsealed opening over a foot wide to the main floor) and adding more insulation.
Same kind of stuff goes for cutting ins costs, cutting the cord to pay TV a decade ago...ect...
Good luck and have fun enjoying your savings this winter.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I can easily adjust it all the way down to -5F. Next cold snap and I'll lower it to 15F for ****s and giggles and see what happens.

That would be great. I’m curious to see when you notice at what ambient temp does it need to run 100% of the time to keep up. Looking forward to it! Certainly. a 15 F test is valuable.