HDEO for flat-tappet motorcycle engines?

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

greguzzi

Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
13
Location
Seattle
Hello:

I'm looking for some reasonably priced oils to run in the flat-tappet, relatively high-revving motorcycle engines we have to care for at our dealership.

Will the new CJ-4 synths and 15-40 dyno oils do the job that the old SG-rated oils do (did)?

What's the consensus.

One caveat: FOr one series of these engines the manufacturer INSISTS most definitely in all capital letters) that the oil be SG rated.
 
Hi,
mostly you should use what the engine manufacturer recommends

For Japanese and some Euro engines the ratings are very important to ensure long clutch (and etc) life
Some makers say SF or SG and SH or SJ with JASO MA (with compliance number included)(JASO T903 MA various or MB - T904)

In bikes without a wet clutch (BMWs for instance) the appropriate viscosity modern HDEO or PCMO will do just fine
I used Castrol Formula SLX (GC) 0W-30 in my R100RS with excellent results - and in temperatures up to 45C (113F)too
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: greguzzi
Hello:

I'm looking for some reasonably priced oils to run in the flat-tappet, relatively high-revving motorcycle engines we have to care for at our dealership.

Will the new CJ-4 synths and 15-40 dyno oils do the job that the old SG-rated oils do (did)?

What's the consensus.

One caveat: FOr one series of these engines the manufacturer INSISTS most definitely in all capital letters) that the oil be SG rated.



welcome2.gif
to BITOG. What kind of motorcycle engines are we talking about?
 
Here's my .02 cents.

I have a Honda Shadow 750. I first got it with 9k miles on it. Didn't smoke at all. I started using Rotella 15W-40 in it. I changed the oil every 1000-1500 miles. Usually every 1000 miles, though.

I ran it a little hard, sure, but I always was easy on it when it was warming up.

Now, it smokes when I crank it, smokes while warming up, and smokes anytime I rev it up.

I recommend against it.
 
You might want to try Mystik 15w50 JT8 HDEO.

Sent an inquiry to Mystik concerning additives. Looks like a good additive package. Available in two gallon jugs about $20.

I am giving it a run since Rotella reduced the ZDDP in the new 15w40.

The reply:

Thank you for your inquiry to Mystik Lubricants.

The following are typical properties on Mystik JT-8 15W-50; Phosphorus 1050 ppm Zinc 1280 ppm Magnesium 1060 ppm Calcium 1220 ppm

Hope this helps in your evaluation.

Sincerely,

Mike Labus
Mystik Lubricants
 
Like Johnny said. It might help to have more information. I am assuming we are talking metric bike if you are running 15W40 but maybe not. Is it air cooled or liquid? Does it share motor oil with the tranny and clutch or are they separate? Do you have any price boundries?

For low priced oil the Mystic looks interesting. I'll be looking for DB_Coopers results in the future. Oddly Mobil 1 15W50 is now considered a bargin by many where in the past it was sort of "elitist". Purchased at Walmart in the 5 Qt. jug is is about $4.50 per Qt. Mobil says 1200 ppm ZDDP and virgin analysis has been showing over 1200 ppm consistently. 1200 ppm zinc and phos seems to be the popular lower threshold for flat tappets and air cooled engines. A lot of people run it in air cooled bikes because it has a good additive package and the Grp III vs Grp IV debate has kind of fallen into the who cares catagory. Most seem to think it still has some PAO in the base stock. There seems to be some emotion surronding it but I think M1 15W50 is a lot of bang for the buck.
 
These are Moto Guzzi engines. They are very much like a slice off of an American V-8. All bearings are plain, and the clutch is dry. The V of the engine is transversely mounted to the frame, so they get very good cooling. Specific output is in the 70hp per liter range, with two valves per clinder, pushrod operated. Older ones have carbs; all since 1997 have EFI.

In general, they are bullet-proof, but we are seeing a lot of very worn camshafts lately, which is why I'm looking for affordable oil that will protect this system of the engine. It seems all the genuine SG-rated motorcycle oils are now $12-15 per quart, so I'm looking for something more moderately priced that will truly do the job.

Thanks for the help.
 
THanks. But has it been recently reformuilated, like the Delo 400? Seems they took out hte good stuff to meet CJ-4.
 
I don't follow the 15W40s much if that is what Moto Guzzi is calling for but as you have already stated some of the CJ-4 oils have less than impressive numbers in the additive package. Have you looked through the oil analysis information on this site? You probably don't have to go back too far to see just he CJ-4s. It would seem that buying the previous ratings would only be a short term solution right? Unless someone has stashed away a 10 year supply for multiple bikes. You could go Red Line, Amsoil, etc. at higher prices. The last case of Red Line I bought came out to $8.16 per Qt. Pretty steep but a sign of the times I guess.
 
Despite Jaymus's bad experience there is a used oil analysis for Rotella 15W40 in a Honda in a 7947 mile run that looks pretty impressive. Go to page 4 of the Motercycle UOAs. It might still be a good option. It was CJ-4 too! I know that the Rotella T has been very popular over the years. Might be worth further investigation. If you can convince yourself that it is good for your application the price is almost impossible to beat.
 
Greg, Rotella synthetic and Delo look robust. I am running Rotella syn in my 2000 Jackal at this time. Are you with Moto International?
 
Originally Posted By: greguzzi
THanks. But has it been recently reformuilated, like the Delo 400? Seems they took out hte good stuff to meet CJ-4.


I don't think that the additive package is that weak in the Rotella CJ4 oils. I have some UOAs that show the Rottela having a stronger additive package than the motorcycle SG oil (Honda GN4)that I used and the wear metals are a touch lower with the Rotella. My bike (Honda ST1100)has a wet clutch and I go 8,000 miles on oil changes. So far at 102,000 miles it's running great with no oil consumption, good compression, and no clutch problems.

Here is one of my UOAs: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1119923#Post1119923

“TucsonDon” also has some nice UOAs posted on this site.

Rick
 
Another Guzzi enthusiast! Welcome to BITOG! I am struggling with the same question for my 1982 V1000G5. I am currently using 20w-50 Maxlife (1k OCI) I am considering using the Brad Penn 20w-50 racing formula and extending the OCI somewhat. Some Harley riders like it and I am told it has a strong additive pack. It is from the same wells and refinery that the legendary Kendall "green goo" oil came from.
 
Originally Posted By: Steelhead
forget about the SL SM rated oils in air cooled MC engines

That's a bold assertion. I know there's a general sentiment that the new SM oils aren't "as good" as the SG, SH, SJ ... but I wonder how much of that is based on a raw comparison of Zn and Ph?

As has been stated, there are some UOAs on this board showing SM oils to perform fairly well.

Is it possible the oil engineers have come up with a recipe that protects as well (maybe better) with less Zn and Ph? Is it possible the newer oil technology might actually be better than the older oil formulations?

Also, as for TBN ... it's my understanding that the raw starting TBN number is only part of the story. The durability of the TBN is the real issue ... a 12.0 TBN oil that depletes in a 1000 miles can't be said to be as good as a 9.0 TBN that maintains that level for 5K miles, right?
 
Originally Posted By: greguzzi
THanks. But has it been recently reformuilated, like the Delo 400? Seems they took out hte good stuff to meet CJ-4.


It's CJ4 but that doesn't mean additive levels are less than SG rated "motorcycle" oils...Even with the CJ-4 rating if you actually look at the VOA and compare it still has higher additive levels than alot of the popular SG rated motorcycle oils....Yes the additive levels of the CJ-4 are slightly lower than the previous Rotella CI-4 but the levels are still higher than many popular SG rated oils...


Here's a direct comparison.

Castrol ACT Evo Xtra 4t motorcycle oil
MOLY: 0
BORON: 2
SILICON: 7
SODIUM: 0
CALCIUM: 1619
MAGNESIUM: 7
PHOSPHOROUS: 768
ZINC: 966
SUS VISC. @210F: 78.9
Cst Visc. @100C: 15.24
Flashpoint: 390
TBN: 8.8

Rotella T 15W40 CJ-4
MOLY: 1
BORON: 35
SILICON: 4
CALCIUM: 3065
PHOSPHORUS: 989
ZINC: 1208
Flashpoint: >405
sus viscosity@210F: 78.1
TBN: 10.3
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
Motor Oil For Vintage Air Cooled Triumph Motorcycle?
2
Replies
25
Views
5K
rmueller23
R
Motul 7100 10W40 vs Ipone Full Power Katana 10W40 Ester for Yamaha MT25
Replies
6
Views
2K
BusyLittleShop
J
Theoretical Justification to Use Traveller 15w-40 in my Wet Clutch MC's
Replies
19
Views
2K
Jim Rogers
F
Delo 5w40 replacement
Replies
17
Views
2K
Snagglefoot
A
What is the right oil to use on a fresh flat tappet engine AFTER break in oil?
2 3
Replies
42
Views
10K
Randy_R
Back
Top