Hatchback with Decent Performance
- Thread starter ET16
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Due to past and present business practice I harbour a severe disdain for the KdF-conglomerate.
Also, I find the Golf's and hence the GTI's ergonomics severely disappointing. Window switches in the wrong position, parking brake where window switches are supposed to be. But even if you let VW off the hook for the window switches in the door, their placement is off by a couple of centimeters. To reach them, you'll have to twist and bend your hand unnaturally inwards (can't bring the arm further back, because then your elbow will hit something).
Instrument cluster and the infotainment screen are to bright and cannot be dimmed down enough to be safe for night driving.
Worst of all, basic adjustments (like dimming instrument cluster brightness) necessitate clicking through three menu pages. This is only safe during a complete standstill - but this is a function that you need regularly when driving through dusk or dawn. Stupid and dangerous.
Oh, and bad seats.
Yes, a VW dashboard may look sleek and elegant, but if you have ever experienced a truly ergonomic cockpit such as a 1980s or 1990s BMW or basically any Saab from the OG 900 onwards, then you will perceive this as appalling.
If it needs to be a car on a Golf platform, then the Audi A3 used to be slightly better ergonomically (although I lack experience with the current A3).
Ford Focus is a car that I would always prefer over a VW Golf. Unfortunately, the Focus, too, is no ergonomic masterpiece and only comes with uninspiring engines (after they retired Volvos 5 cylinder, that is), like the Golf it is plagued by terrible seats, but at least the chassis/suspension setup is great - over ALL engine/model variants. (Unlike VW, where in some model years only the nicer engines got the better rear axle.)
Just remember to disable ESP after you start the engine, in the first three generations at least it used to be rubbish and do more harm than good.*
Another option might be a Renault Mégane, but I'm not sure if these are sold in the US...
A Mini, as noted by a different contributor to this thread some posts prior, is a very fun car and a Clubman would surely check all the boxes - if you can get over the clownish dashboard (for something that ridiculously looking it is actually not as bad as one would think).
(It seems to expect a complete moron who either freezes or does ******** when the rear starts to move. If you do nothing, the ESP will work great. But if you have at least a bit of sense, you will start to take corrective action before the ESP reacts, which means that when the ESP kicks in, it will try to kill you, for example by sending you into oncoming traffic).
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Maybe it's just what became accustomed to since my first car was an A3, but I find the Golf ergonomics completely spot on. I just feel at home when I sit in one.
Or your body has different proportions. I can't make the Golf work for me... my lower arms are to long*.
Someone with shorter lower arms (or a smaller build in general) might not notice the window switch issue... but they would still have to fight with the touch screen when doing basic adjustments.
*I'm neither particularly tall nor big - only 1.90m and 110kg, and I don't have a particularly long span, but my lower arms are rather long in relation to my upper arms. (To a point that I have severe difficulty cleaning or front squatting a barbell). The long lower arm will mean that your elbow is wedged all the way back between seat and door panel, and still your fingertips will end up forewards of the window switches, necessitating a 90° downwards bend of the wrist. Extremely uncomfortable.
Yes, I'm a very average (in American proportions) 1.75m and ~75kg
Have you driven a MK7.5 GTI? It's verging on luxury car for the segment. I'm not sure what happened but, it might be the best modern small car ever made.
I don't know what you mean by window switches in the wrong place. I can't think of a car I've had that had them in an odd space other than my '04 GTO which was on the center console. If that's where you prefer them that's a rare location in this market. Most that put them on the center console is a budget constraint decision because it's too expensive to relocate switches between left and right hand drive. To be fair I think the GTO minus it's shortcomings, the chance to experience a Holden Monaro in the states was a beautiful experience and while you could see some points of cost cutting involved with overlord GM, that car showed a lot of heart. I think VW muddied it a bit with the MK8 but considering years of driving Fords/Lincolns, GMs, Jaguars, and while not owned by me regular time in Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, BMW, Lamborghini, Maserati(abysmal), and about everything in between. I've been in Bentleys, but not Rolls Royce. I would have to assume that you're referring to the last generation of Golf, because there is phyisical lighting dimmer controls left of the wheel on the dash on my car. There are further ones in the screen for additional screen brightness, but everything adjusts with the dial next to the wheel. I have less than an hour's experience with the new car. I also have analog gauges as nature intended so I have a feeling we aren't talking about the same generation of car. Considering you're talking of old BMWs I think we can safely say there isn't a modern full screened car that doesn't suck.
I really can't take it seriously comparing a Focus to a Golf not knowing what generations you're comparing, but the Focus like all other Fords I've experienced and owned have cheap penalty box interiors, even at $50k and are questionable at best. Lincolns(which I've owned) have nicer leather with the same plastic touch points as any other Ford.
The Mini's clownish interior is one of it's best and most fun attributes.
I have no idea what your small text rant is about but if you're talking about VW's ESP sport mode that is an issue in the MK7 easily shut off with VAGCOM. It's sad that's what it takes but they've corrected it in the new model. I really honestly don't know if I've seen a smarter interior when it comes to materials and price as the Golf, but to be fair I drive a fully appointed GTI Autobahn so maybe there's something lacking in the lower models.
I think cars are starting to suck experience wise when it comes to interiors but I still can't think of anything else I'd buy to replace my 2018 GTI than a new GTI. I think the interior is a downgrade, but I think the driving experience wins. That's something a plastic interior'ed Focus can't do and if we're talking RS cars those are rare, hard to come by, and unreliable.
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I prefer my window switches in the center console. That is where any respectable manufacturer has alwas put them (Mercedes, BMW, Saab). VW starded the trend of putting them in the door panels when they began building not-so-spartan cars in the late 1990s.
Good to know that VW fixed the instrument/dashboard lighting issue and that the wheel dial finally returned.
And yes, you are totally right that a Focus feels cheap compared to a Golf. Current VW Interieurs look and feel great.
I strongly feel that modern interiors with their mandatory touch screen usage are a step in the wrong direction. Give me a physical interface! A dial, a switch, a button... anything that I can operate without purely by touching and feeling it. Forcing the driver to take the eyes of the road to read the inscription of a virtual butzon on a touch screen is unnecessarily dangerous. That is no better than playing with a phone...
This kind of ruins modern cars for me. Which is a shame, because th3y have become so competent in pretty much anything else...
Btw, it was the Focus' ESP I was complaining about, not the Golf's. I've only had Golfs as short term rentals, so I never got into trouble with them, while I had been issued several Generations of Focuses (Foci? Focus? I- or U-declination? Sorry, my latin is a little dusty...) by my ex employer and so spent a lot of time with these, even in winter in the mountains. The ESP rant applies to Focus 1 all the way to Focus 3. I have not had a current Focus in the snow and ice, so I can't tell if this is still the case. But as this felt like a design choice - because you can program an ESP so that it works with and not against the driver - I would not be surprised if the issue persisted to this day. And this choice was really odd because the chassis and suspension setup even of a base engine Focus is one of the best, if not the best in the entyre market segment. This car would not need any electronic nannies except for government overreach.
To bring this conversation back onto a more constructive path: what about a BRZ/GT86? Technically these are hatchbacks and should be fun to drive... I have no idea if a bike fits into the back. Maybe if one takes both wheels out.
Good to know that VW fixed the instrument/dashboard lighting issue and that the wheel dial finally returned.
And yes, you are totally right that a Focus feels cheap compared to a Golf. Current VW Interieurs look and feel great.
I strongly feel that modern interiors with their mandatory touch screen usage are a step in the wrong direction. Give me a physical interface! A dial, a switch, a button... anything that I can operate without purely by touching and feeling it. Forcing the driver to take the eyes of the road to read the inscription of a virtual butzon on a touch screen is unnecessarily dangerous. That is no better than playing with a phone...
This kind of ruins modern cars for me. Which is a shame, because th3y have become so competent in pretty much anything else...
Btw, it was the Focus' ESP I was complaining about, not the Golf's. I've only had Golfs as short term rentals, so I never got into trouble with them, while I had been issued several Generations of Focuses (Foci? Focus? I- or U-declination? Sorry, my latin is a little dusty...) by my ex employer and so spent a lot of time with these, even in winter in the mountains. The ESP rant applies to Focus 1 all the way to Focus 3. I have not had a current Focus in the snow and ice, so I can't tell if this is still the case. But as this felt like a design choice - because you can program an ESP so that it works with and not against the driver - I would not be surprised if the issue persisted to this day. And this choice was really odd because the chassis and suspension setup even of a base engine Focus is one of the best, if not the best in the entyre market segment. This car would not need any electronic nannies except for government overreach.
To bring this conversation back onto a more constructive path: what about a BRZ/GT86? Technically these are hatchbacks and should be fun to drive... I have no idea if a bike fits into the back. Maybe if one takes both wheels out.
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Great post. I agree with all this except the power window switches (for vehicles with automatic transmission, which is 99% in U.S.). It's not intuitive to have them on the center console, they should be on the door more or less where a manual window crank would be. And not just for posterity: When I'm pulling into a parking garage, I want my right hand to stay on the steering wheel (not reaching over to the center console to drop the window) and I want my attention towards the door where the action is.
For manual shift transmissions I agree center console is better since your shifting hand is naturally over there.
Even I have to admit that this looks gorgeous.
For a somewhat out of the box choice - what about a newer model buick regal with the sportback? It looks like a sedan but the entire rear glass lifts up.
It's a size larger that most mentioned but should have good performance with the turbo engines.
It's a size larger that most mentioned but should have good performance with the turbo engines.
I have actually been looking for one of those.... Not many around and usually a little pricey.
No, not too many around. They seem a decent value relative to equipment at least in my area. 18-23k with low miles.
My friend has one and loves it. It's too bad that that car never caught on.
I'm seeing them at between $20K and $24K.
Let me get this straight -- you are saying BMW and Mercedes "have always" put power window switches in the center console?
And that VW "started the trend" of power window switches in the doors in the late 1990s??
(Window switches in the console is bad ergonomics and is a corner-cutting measure by manufacturers, IMO.)
Yes. My Mercedes w123 and w126 had their window switches in the center console, as well as my e34 and now my e46.
My Saab 900s, 9000s, 9-5, and my wife's 900/II too.
Here in in Europe, window switches in the door panels appeared only when ordinary car makers such as VW, Opel and Ford tried to be perceived no longer as cheap, but a little bit more upmarket (only VW somewhat succeeded). Since then, unfortunately more and more manufacturers have followed suit. It's just bad engineering: you need more wires, more switches, hence more stuff to go wrong and more weight.
Window switches in the doorpanels put me off. I don't want to drive a common VW...
(Well, to be fair there are two VW models I'd like to own, but both of them have removable doors and no ambitions on being luxurious).
My Saab 900s, 9000s, 9-5, and my wife's 900/II too.
Here in in Europe, window switches in the door panels appeared only when ordinary car makers such as VW, Opel and Ford tried to be perceived no longer as cheap, but a little bit more upmarket (only VW somewhat succeeded). Since then, unfortunately more and more manufacturers have followed suit. It's just bad engineering: you need more wires, more switches, hence more stuff to go wrong and more weight.
Window switches in the doorpanels put me off. I don't want to drive a common VW...
(Well, to be fair there are two VW models I'd like to own, but both of them have removable doors and no ambitions on being luxurious).
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Not sure about MB, but BMW hasn't had them in the center for many years. Seems they moved most of the window switches to the door panels by the mid-2000's in most of their cars.
I remember reading something about an industry-wide gentlemen's agreement on ergonomics somewhere around that time. Really sad that they appealed to the lower classes.
Late 1980s and 1990s BMW are probably the pinnacle of automotive ergonomics.
Late 1980s and 1990s BMW are probably the pinnacle of automotive ergonomics.
