Harley Davidson - Formula +

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Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I found this online as it refers to this site. As you can see it's nothing to get excited about. Here's a link to H-D Formula Virgin Oil Analysis: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=926039#Post926039 And here's what the site said.
.....

Listed as a GL-1, does test out as a GL-3.

Harley owners may be better served by using a lube that meets GL-4 requirements and has more P and Zn, and a basestock resistant to shear.


Ah yes, agreed, nothing to get excited about in the VOA but its transmission oil not engine oil, even though the VOA is EIGHT years old chances are it is the same formula, maybe, but again, no proof that another transmission or engine oil is any better in a manual transmission because no wear tests are done on it.
Also contrary GL4/5 gear lubes are not normally used not used in transmissions and just like automobiles you will never see a recommendation to put a GL4 or 5 gear lube in a manual transmission. Although the GL4/5 are much safer now, they are known to attack yellow metals in the transmission, GL4/5 is normally in differentials. Though for some reason people go out and put in in manual transmissions thinking its better but its not. Your better off with plain engine oil.


I would think Red Line oil knows something about oils when they recommend GL-5 in my Sportster trans.

Dave @ Red line says their 75W90 GL-5 gear oil does not affect yellow metals. Heres what he said in an email.

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in the shared Sportster primary/transmission the 75W90 is recommended, a product that has been used extensively and performs well.

The 75W90 is the product we have have used for a number of years with very good results in Sportster/Buell transmissions, matching the viscosity and type fluid called for.
The 80W Motorcycle Gear Oil is a lower viscosity than called for, the ShockProof gear oils can due to their unique characteristics could cause sticking of the Harley clutches.
The 75W90 would be preferred and recommended over 80W Motorcycle Gear Oil in these applications.

There can be issues with some GL-5 gear oils in certain applications. Some can be corrosive to brass, bronze or copper, not an issue with our GL-5 gear oils, they don’t cause corrosion, pitting or metal removal. In a synchro equipped transmission the friction modifiers contained in many gear oils can make them too slippery, though not the case in a motorcycle transmission with dog rings.
 
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I found this online as it refers to this site. As you can see it's nothing to get excited about. Here's a link to H-D Formula Virgin Oil Analysis: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=926039#Post926039 And here's what the site said.
.....

Listed as a GL-1, does test out as a GL-3.

Harley owners may be better served by using a lube that meets GL-4 requirements and has more P and Zn, and a basestock resistant to shear.


Ah yes, agreed, nothing to get excited about in the VOA but its transmission oil not engine oil, even though the VOA is EIGHT years old chances are it is the same formula, maybe, but again, no proof that another transmission or engine oil is any better in a manual transmission because no wear tests are done on it.
Also contrary GL4/5 gear lubes are not normally used not used in transmissions and just like automobiles you will never see a recommendation to put a GL4 or 5 gear lube in a manual transmission. Although the GL4/5 are much safer now, they are known to attack yellow metals in the transmission, GL4/5 is normally in differentials. Though for some reason people go out and put in in manual transmissions thinking its better but its not. Your better off with plain engine oil.
If you want to use formula because YOU think its the best, GO ahead. But transmissions have gears in them. That's why they should have an oil designed for gears, not just expensive plain jane 50 wt motor oil. Gear oil is for use in rear ends and manual transmissions. If you don't belive it read this,http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/valvoline-high-performance-80w-90-gear-oil-vv831/7070003-P.,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Use whatever oil is the cheapest. This way you won't have that empty feeling in your stomach as you watch $12 a qt oil, being dumped into the drain pan.,,


+1 Harley Davidsons are not too picky on oil. If you are on a budget go to Walmart and get Rotella 15w40 for the engine and primary and a quart of Rotella 85w90 gear lube for the trans. I do recommend you use the Harley oil filter though.

The gear lube can go 20,000 miles. Once you use gear lube in the trans you will never go back.
 
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"Although the GL4/5 are much safer now, they are known to attack yellow metals in the transmission, GL4/5 is normally in differentials. Though for some reason people go out and put in in manual transmissions thinking its better but its not. Your better off with plain engine oil."

There are NO yellow metals in a Harley Davidson transmission
 
The Harley transmissions seem to be fairly bulletproof.
Their Formula+ has a fairly high flash point, which leads me to believe that it's a decent base stock. We have three in our group with 100k+ on their bikes, using Genuine Harley Fluids.

Some have mentioned gear oil for the transmissions and I use the Mobil 1 75W-90 LS, but only because it gives a smoother shift. Personally, I believe you could use just about anything in a Harley transmission.

Sportster transmissions share fluid with the primary chaincase so I (personally) would not use a gear oil there. Probably OK if you get the right gear oil.

For years and years we used motor oil in transmission and primary chaincases. Certainly, there are "better" or more technically correct fluids - but sometimes it's plenty "good enough"
 
Originally Posted By: kballowe
The Harley transmissions seem to be fairly bulletproof.
Their Formula+ has a fairly high flash point, which leads me to believe that it's a decent base stock. We have three in our group with 100k+ on their bikes, using Genuine Harley Fluids.

Some have mentioned gear oil for the transmissions and I use the Mobil 1 75W-90 LS, but only because it gives a smoother shift. Personally, I believe you could use just about anything in a Harley transmission.

Sportster transmissions share fluid with the primary chaincase so I (personally) would not use a gear oil there. Probably OK if you get the right gear oil.

For years and years we used motor oil in transmission and primary chaincases. Certainly, there are "better" or more technically correct fluids - but sometimes it's plenty "good enough"

I agree with that statement about being plenty good. The issue to me is if I'm paying top dollar for a product, it needs to be alot better then something that cost alot less. When I can but a qt of gear oil for the trans for less then $6, it doesn't make sense to pay almost $10 for formula , which has been proven to be just a glorified 50 wt oil.,,,
 
Originally Posted By: kballowe
...
For years and years we used motor oil in transmission and primary chaincases. Certainly, there are "better" or more technically correct fluids - but sometimes it's plenty "good enough"


FWIW

I had the 1000 mile service on the softail done Friday. I discussed the lubricants with both the SW and the Tech.

At that dealer (a very high volume dealer - does a lot of service work) they use SYN3 in all 3 holes unless specifically requested to do otherwise. They said they have never had any of the issues reported on the internet and that Harley is more than fine with it.

I talked to the tech a bit (he saw me pull the sample and bagged the filter for me) about alternatives for the primary and transmission and he said "redline"...

Now I know being a dealer tech doesn't make you an oil guy, but with the kind of volume these guys do, I'd say they have above average experience with what works. So I would say motor oil is plenty good enough...

Also the bike shifts much nicer and the clutch action is smoother.
 
Too bad the price you paid isn't good enough. If overpaying for so/so oil makes you happy, go for it. While motor oil will lubricate the motor, and is the same weight as gear oil, it will shear out of grade faster then gear oil. That's why they make gear oil for rear ends and transmissions. Some people will never change the oil in their cars transmission or rear, and go over 150k miles on it with no problems. Would you try that with motor oil or Formula?.,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Too bad the price you paid isn't good enough. If overpaying for so/so oil makes you happy, go for it.


Too bad that your reading comprehension is so poor you failed to realize that I did not ask, nor do I care what you think of the price I paid (which you are clueless about anyway) or how I choose to spend the money that I make.
 
A friend of mine uses Amsoil 20w50 in all three holes of his TC Harley and changes it and his Amsoil filter at 2,500 miles, a waste of money in my opinion, but he says it makes him feel good. It's his money, not mine.
 
Originally Posted By: endeavor to persevere
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I found this online as it refers to this site. As you can see it's nothing to get excited about. Here's a link to H-D Formula Virgin Oil Analysis: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=926039#Post926039 And here's what the site said.
.....

Listed as a GL-1, does test out as a GL-3.

Harley owners may be better served by using a lube that meets GL-4 requirements and has more P and Zn, and a basestock resistant to shear.


Ah yes, agreed, nothing to get excited about in the VOA but its transmission oil not engine oil, even though the VOA is EIGHT years old chances are it is the same formula, maybe, but again, no proof that another transmission or engine oil is any better in a manual transmission because no wear tests are done on it.
Also contrary GL4/5 gear lubes are not normally used not used in transmissions and just like automobiles you will never see a recommendation to put a GL4 or 5 gear lube in a manual transmission. Although the GL4/5 are much safer now, they are known to attack yellow metals in the transmission, GL4/5 is normally in differentials. Though for some reason people go out and put in in manual transmissions thinking its better but its not. Your better off with plain engine oil.


I would think Red Line oil knows something about oils when they recommend GL-5 in my Sportster trans.

Dave @ Red line says their 75W90 GL-5 gear oil does not affect yellow metals. Heres what he said in an email.

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in the shared Sportster primary/transmission the 75W90 is recommended, a product that has been used extensively and performs well.

The 75W90 is the product we have have used for a number of years with very good results in Sportster/Buell transmissions, matching the viscosity and type fluid called for.
The 80W Motorcycle Gear Oil is a lower viscosity than called for, the ShockProof gear oils can due to their unique characteristics could cause sticking of the Harley clutches.
The 75W90 would be preferred and recommended over 80W Motorcycle Gear Oil in these applications.

There can be issues with some GL-5 gear oils in certain applications. Some can be corrosive to brass, bronze or copper, not an issue with our GL-5 gear oils, they don’t cause corrosion, pitting or metal removal. In a synchro equipped transmission the friction modifiers contained in many gear oils can make them too slippery, though not the case in a motorcycle transmission with dog rings.


Of course Red Line knows something about something, after all they are selling you a product, if they couldnt sell you a product they would be out of business! Would be nice if they could show proof, wear tests, to back up their claim over simple, plain jane Primary + which someone keeps posting over and over rates as a GL3 gear lube.
Thats all I am saying ... and YES, I am also saying "Gear Lube" as for differentials I would NEVER use in my transmission, even Amsoil recommends their engine oil over their gear lube.

Now back to REDLINE ... they use the word "Gear Lube" loosely ... for two completely different applications. ONE is MANUAL TRANSMISSION OIL and another product is GEAR OIL.
I would never use GEAR OIL (as many do) in a manual transmission and NO automotive maker in the world recommends "gear lube" as in differential oil in their transmissions, yet some put them in their Harleys thinking it is better, all Im saying, Primary + will do the same or better.

Ok, back to REDLINE (yes again) they CLEARLY state on their bottles Manual Transmission Lubricant (GEAR OIL) and that certainly makes me happy, most others are using Gear Oil as in differential oil. Im glad Red Line shows the difference, in fact, I MAY even look into that one day, you will also notice many ref to automotive manual transmission for the GL4 but not 5.

Here is the site ... clearly labled ... Manual Transmissions Red Line

Here is the site, clearly labeled Differentials ... Red Line

I have no problem with anyone using a product for the application its intended for and Red Line clearly states Transmission Oil. I am fine with that and honestly was NOT aware of it.
Many people ARE using DIFFERENTIAL gear lubes in their transmissions and it simply the wrong product for the application.

BTW we all are still splitting hairs. .. *LOL* ... With care, proper maintenance ... being most important .. one thing for sure, even though its pricey, the Harley oils do their job, Ill only use products where I can see the results of standard tests. Though you now peaked my interest with labeled "MANUAL TRANSMISSION OIL" anyone have any VOAs / UOAs on it?
 
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Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I found this online as it refers to this site. As you can see it's nothing to get excited about. Here's a link to H-D Formula Virgin Oil Analysis: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=926039#Post926039 And here's what the site said.
.....

Listed as a GL-1, does test out as a GL-3.

Harley owners may be better served by using a lube that meets GL-4 requirements and has more P and Zn, and a basestock resistant to shear.


Ah yes, agreed, nothing to get excited about in the VOA but its transmission oil not engine oil, even though the VOA is EIGHT years old chances are it is the same formula, maybe, but again, no proof that another transmission or engine oil is any better in a manual transmission because no wear tests are done on it.
Also contrary GL4/5 gear lubes are not normally used not used in transmissions and just like automobiles you will never see a recommendation to put a GL4 or 5 gear lube in a manual transmission. Although the GL4/5 are much safer now, they are known to attack yellow metals in the transmission, GL4/5 is normally in differentials. Though for some reason people go out and put in in manual transmissions thinking its better but its not. Your better off with plain engine oil.
If you want to use formula because YOU think its the best, GO ahead. But transmissions have gears in them. That's why they should have an oil designed for gears, not just expensive plain jane 50 wt motor oil. Gear oil is for use in rear ends and manual transmissions. If you don't belive it read this,http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/valvoline-high-performance-80w-90-gear-oil-vv831/7070003-P.,,


This is a bit of an over-simplification.

There are many manual transmissions out there with 6 figure miles on them that ran ATF their entire lives. That certainly isn't gear oil.

At the end of the day it comes down to the needs of the transmission. Trying to reduce the requirements down to it has gears or not ignores too many other critical components. Specifically in the case of the manual transmissions that run ATF, the need is proper flow to the bearings. The gears themselves need minimal protection.
 
This is a bit of an over-simplification.

There are many manual transmissions out there with 6 figure miles on them that ran ATF their entire lives. That certainly isn't gear oil.

At the end of the day it comes down to the needs of the transmission. Trying to reduce the requirements down to it has gears or not ignores too many other critical components. Specifically in the case of the manual transmissions that run ATF, the need is proper flow to the bearings. The gears themselves need minimal protection.
[/quote]

I have to agree with most of this statement, proper flow but I also think gear wear is important, so bottom line is, the manufacturer should know what works best and if you stick to what the manufacturer recommendations chances are you will be better off for it.

I am sure there are some better lubricants other then what is recommended but I do believe its a [censored] shoot when one goes outside of what is recommended because someone can make up a convincing reason/theory to use any product over another.

The good news with Harley though, is they recommend two different lubricants, Primary + and regular 20/50 synthetic oil for the transmission.
Being that is what it is, you maybe able to choose something a bit more robust for your tranny and be within Harleys guidelines, its where people go overboard with a differential specific gear lube, thinking it is better but in my eyes can only be worse, as Harley would simply put a differential gear lube in their transmissions if it was good, to back that up further, Amsoil recommends their differential gear lube for the transmission too, but they specifically show their standard syn motor oil as being better.

Anyway, all I am saying is people are putting true differential gear lube in their trannys, I personally would not do that. Because the transmission does not require differential gear lube any more then the engine does.
In Redlines case, I just learned they actually market a transmission oil that is different from their differential oil which further backs up what we are saying as Redline doesnt recommend their differential gear lube for Harley transmissions either.
Yet we have people all over the country putting Mobile 1 and many other companies gear lubes (not transmission oils or motoroils) in their transmissions, for me personally that is a poor choice, and not much different then if you put differential gear lube in your engine.
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Isn't that what YOU are doing by using SYN III? Using motor oil to lube your transmission? 1 oil fits all oil usage needs?.,,,


It depends on what the needs are.

The Honda M2A4 transmission takes 10w-30 oil. Nothing "transmission" specific about the oil spec for those transmissions.

The T170FS (SROD) takes 90w gear oil.

Swap the oils between the two and you'll blow them both up.

It doesn't matter if the label on the bottle reads "motor" or "transmission" or "gear". What matters is what's in the bottle and what the transmission needs.
 
It might not matter to you or your Honda, but in a Harley it can make a world of difference. Your bike will be more touchy with shift quality if you use a certain brand of oil, for a given amount of miles. So it is really comparing bananas to coconuts.,,,
 
Originally Posted By: Seijirou
Lol. Well I did point out 2 transmissions, with very different requirements, and say that if you mix them up you're going to blow them both up. Yes they both care what goes in them!

alarmguy is right, the manufacturer calls for SYN3 20w50 in the transmission.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Content/Pages/Owners/om/2012/en/touring/file-8.comp

Of course in a free country you can throw gear oil in there if you want to!
If you read the entire manual it says Harley's oil is the recommended oil, Not the REQUIRED oil.Same goes for the transmission oil. Because if it was the only oil that could be used, Harley would have to supply it free of charge. Harley knows there are alot of other brands of oils that will work just fine, but they won't make any money if you don't use Harley oil. it's amazing Harley lists the specs for and recommends a diesel motor oil as a suitable oil to be used, if Harley motor oil isn't available? Could it be that they know pretty much any oil will work? Not just their overpriced offerings?.,,
 
Every mfg recommends 'they're oil'. Use 'genuine' fill in the blank brake pads, batteries, oil, wiper blades, and keep your vehicle all 'fill in the blank mfgr '. My Chevy truck manual 'recommends' using 'genuine' Chevy oil. My wifes Toyota manual 'recommends' using 'genuine' Toyota oil. Of course 'they' know you have a choice, but 'they' would be foolish not to encourage a customer to come back to 'they're' dealership for service, parts and repairs. People obviously choose to do business with shops other than dealerships or they're wouldn't be a NAPA, AZ, or Advance store on every other corner in the country. Harley isn't the only vehicle mfgr who 'recommends' the customer use they're 'genuine' parts. I don't use the Harley overpriced Formula+ transmission oil, which is doing a good job in countless bikes, I use the Redline Shockproof overpriced transmission oil which I'll change at 10,000 miles.
 
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