Harbor Freight Tools

[Win]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
...

But those companies DO manufacture products here! The X3 and X5 are made in the USA for the USA market. Honda, Toyota, Nissan....etc all have US-based assembly facilities.

Name one Chinese company that does this?


Yeah, they do now, in limited quantities, after getting enormous tax giveaways and subsidies from the states they pit against each other to locate their facilities. They certainly didn't when they were draining our manufacturing base and building theirs up, at the expense of the middle class factory worker in this country.

They weren't always high cost nations - they got that way at our expense.

Do you think Chinese companies will never manufacture in this country? I think it's too early to say, but as long as energy is cheap and environmental restrictions are slight in China, probably not.

[/quote]

Quote:
useless junk of inferior quality ....


I thought this was the thread issue before it train wrecked. It's not all junk. Some undoubtedly is, but it's not all junk, and imo, even the junk is getting better. I have some products on my desk back at the office that I am thinking about trying to distribute ( a business I know nothing about, unfortunately ) and they are quite good and inexpensive.

The worst damage of China manufacturing is yet to come.

Imports have been killing us for many decades. Why draw the line in the sand now? The way I recall it, people always thought cheap imports were great - they liked the variety and quality and they always claimed the competition was good. Of course the competition was from countries that severely undercut us in labor costs then, as now.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Trav


IMHO buying anything Chinese from anyone is treacherous by anyone, and i'm sorry but this applies to veterans also and i don't mean to single jcwit out.
What other word you you prefer? Again IMHO supporting a country who's leadership is bent on our financial (not political) demise is indeed treacherous not just wrong.

Agree or disagree thats my opinion.


Don't know why this is so hard for others to comprehend. The veteran point is so irrelevant to the spirit of the points being made, it really shouldn't be mentioned by folks on either side.


Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


It is our refusal to do anything about it along with refusing to live within our means, just like this thread indicates that will be our undoing.

Exercising our "right to shop" just to buy useless junk of inferior quality is just as bad as pretending we have the money to do it with.




Better watch it - you sound snobby to me but you got to one of the major issues there too.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Anyway, can we get back to talking about HF tools. You can't discuss HF without discussing low quality and junkiness but so far no one has adressed my question.



OK, every H/F tool I have purchased has accomplished the tasks I wished it to do except 1. That was a vibratory tumbler tumbler that I was going to use to polish brass, bearings burned out on three of them and I got my money back and found a U.S. made unit with a chinese motor in the same price range. Did not know about the U.S. tumbler when I purchased the H/F ones.

I can say the same for the Craftsmen tools I've purchased over the years, but I did have a ratchet and a few sockets break which were replaced, no questions asked.

Same can be said for my SK Wayne tools and Snap-On tools, and inexpensive plyers I bought 30/40 years ago which were made in India.

But then I've never made my livelyhood using tools much. Always found it easier to tell others what to do.


I haven't used HF tools much but the few I have were pretty bad. I wouldn't put it into the same league as Crafstmen. The HF tools' metallurgy was so bad, I just wrote off buying any of their tools. I still wonder how good their warranty is and if it's lifetime.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
...

But those companies DO manufacture products here! The X3 and X5 are made in the USA for the USA market. Honda, Toyota, Nissan....etc all have US-based assembly facilities.

Name one Chinese company that does this?


Yeah, they do now, in limited quantities, after getting enormous tax giveaways and subsidies from the states they pit against each other to locate their facilities. They certainly didn't when they were draining our manufacturing base and building theirs up, at the expense of the middle class factory worker in this country.

They weren't always high cost nations - they got that way at our expense.


You are telling me that BMW, who originally manufactured AIRPLANES? The same company that makes the M5, M3, X5, X3....etc originally "dumped" low cost cars on our shores before manufacturing them here? Because I don't recall in the entire history of the company that being the case. And the same goes for Mercedes Benz.

While this was indeed the case for the Japanese marques (they were lower cost) the same yardstick cannot be used for the German cars with perhaps the exception of the Nazi-born VW Bug.

Germany is FAR older than the United States. So is England, France, Italy.....etc. Even Japan was industrialized in-line with these other nations. The same cannot be said for China.

So no, it isn't the same. It is isn't even close to being the same. And China is much, MUCH larger than Japan, Korea....etc any of the other nations we are discussing.

Germany hasn't "drained" anything from the United States unless you consider people who might have bought Lincolns and Cadillacs but bought Bimmers and Benzes instead. And that is FAR from the majority of car buyers. The German marques are guilty of selling high content, overly complex EXPENSIVE cars in North America. If that's an attack on our manufacturing sector, then I'm Henry Ford.

Quote:
Do you think Chinese companies will never manufacture in this country? I think it's too early to say, but as long as energy is cheap and environmental restrictions are slight in China, probably not.


China is not run like any other country we "compete" with. The closest thing I can think of is Soviet-era Russia. And that was a cold war......


Quote:

Quote:
useless junk of inferior quality ....


I thought this was the thread issue before it train wrecked. It's not all junk. Some undoubtedly is, but it's not all junk, and imo, even the junk is getting better. I have some products on my desk back at the office that I am thinking about trying to distribute ( a business I know nothing about, unfortunately ) and they are quite good and inexpensive.

The worst damage of China manufacturing is yet to come.

Imports have been killing us for many decades. Why draw the line in the sand now? The way I recall it, people always thought cheap imports were great - they liked the variety and quality and they always claimed the competition was good. Of course the competition was from countries that severely undercut us in labor costs then, as now.


The line is pretty easy for most of us to draw. A fair metric is the cost of living in a given nation. That's what the entire idea of a Global Economy should be based on. I have no qualms about buying German, English, French, Italian, Japanese...etc sourced products based on my criteria as to buying based on first-world nation status. Of course I have my own internal hierarchy to that list, and I choose Canada, USA then German origin first.

No American company that I know of is guilty of out-sourcing to another first-world nation. And that is the current threat in the form of economic erosion and the source of the loss of manufacturing in North America. Sears didn't move Craftsman production to England, Bell didn't out-source their call centres to France, Cisco isn't manufacturing routers in Germany and DeWalt isn't making power tools in Italy.

The common thread with most out-sourcing and bolstering the bottom-line is China.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Now a disabled American veteran is "Treacherous" because some people don't like where he buys his tools.

NO thats not the case. Some people use the fact that being a veteran and having served in some way gives a pass to buying Chinese goods. This is not the first place or time i have heard this!

IMHO buying anything Chinese from anyone is treacherous by anyone, and i'm sorry but this applies to veterans also and i don't mean to single jcwit out.
What other word you you prefer? Again IMHO supporting a country who's leadership is bent on our financial (not political) demise is indeed treacherous not just wrong.

Agree or disagree thats my opinion.

Trav out.


Some didn't like that but I think there is truth in what you're saying. I think it was treacherous for the gov to have opened up trade with china and to a lesser extent business leaders to outsource there. I stop short of saying it's treacherous for consumers to buy products imported from there. The buck stops with the policymakers and the constitution puts commerce as the responsibility for the feds. If a law blocked trade with a country and a consumer still bought from there, then that would make them treacherous imo.

I don't think trade is necessarily wrong or bad but I think it does matter who you are trading with and whether or not you are running trade deficits. I just put most of the blame and responsibility at policmakers and industry leaders

.

 

[antiqueshell]

Wow! Some very well thought out posts here!

I hope the mods have the insight to allow this thread to continue for some time.

Folks have got to stop having such thin skin. No worthwhile dialogue ever occured because of PC.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: jcwit
OK, every H/F tool I have purchased has accomplished the tasks I wished it to do except 1. That was a vibratory tumbler tumbler that I was going to use to polish brass, bearings burned out on three of them and I got my money back and found a U.S. made unit with a chinese motor in the same price range. Did not know about the U.S. tumbler when I purchased the H/F ones.

I can say the same for the Craftsmen tools I've purchased over the years, but I did have a ratchet and a few sockets break which were replaced, no questions asked.

Same can be said for my SK Wayne tools and Snap-On tools, and inexpensive plyers I bought 30/40 years ago which were made in India.

But then I've never made my livelyhood using tools much. Always found it easier to tell others what to do.


I haven't used HF tools much but the few I have were pretty bad. I wouldn't put it into the same league as Crafstmen. The HF tools' metallurgy was so bad, I just wrote off buying any of their tools. I still wonder how good their warranty is and if it's lifetime.


First I wasn't comparing H/F to anyone elses tools. Just stating the experience I had with H/F, Craftsman, SKWayne, Snap-On and others.

Regarding their warranty check here

http://www.harborfreight.com/warranty-info

As with any warranty, read carefully.

Only experience I have here is with the 3 tumblers mentioned earlier, they were returned 3 different times no questions asked and in the end my money was refunded with no questions asked.

 

[mechanicx]

Seems like you were saying your experience with HF was equally to other tool brands. Mine hasn't been. So you have to have a receipt for the HF warranty. Receipts aren't all that durable.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
Quote:

IMHO buying anything Chinese from anyone is treacherous by anyone, and i'm sorry but this applies to veterans also and i don't mean to single jcwit out.
What other word you you prefer? Again IMHO supporting a country who's leadership is bent on our financial (not political) demise is indeed treacherous not just wrong.

Agree or disagree thats my opinion.


Don't know why this is so hard for others to comprehend. The veteran point is so irrelevant to the spirit of the points being made, it really shouldn't be mentioned by folks on either side.....

Correct, it shouldn't be, but in this case it clearly was. And when the post specifically mentions "veteran", "supporting the Chinese in any way" being "treacherous by providing aid and comfort to the enemy" in the same sentence, then it becomes entirely relevant to this discussion. Or did you miss that? As only one identified veteran predominantly posted here as an HF buyer, apparently not too difficult for some to reach a conclusion about what was implied. Poster obviously wasn't referring to himself.

But, it's not too difficult to comprehend at all, you buy Harbor Freight when suits your needs and requirements, much as others here do. Based on your apparent agreement with the treacherous label above, that would include you. While I obviously don't agree with that severely warped characterization of any HF product buyer, I would say that it makes you hypocritical in this discussion. That's my opinion.

I do ammend one prior statement I made in this thread though, I now perfectly understand why this thread hasn't been locked.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Seems like you were saying your experience with HF was equally to other tool brands. Mine hasn't been. So you have to have a receipt for the HF warranty. Receipts aren't all that durable.


If you would CAREFULLY read my posts you would note that the ONLY time I needed to return an item was the tumblers. Have yet to need warranty service on any other item.

However if perchance if I happen to break my wifes $2.00 hammer I'm somewhat sure I can afford to buy another one and still only have $4.00 invested.

Actually I've had more Craftsman tools replaced from breakage than H/F. One Craftsman ratchet has been replaced 3 or 4 times, and a few sockets have been replaced. Tools replaced by H/F ZERO so far other than the tumbler. I'm happy with my experience. YMMV

 

[eljefino]

Sliding O/T but the Danahar USA Kobalt ratchet I got from Lowes as a post-father's day clearance tem had a nasty action. Not only was it 36 tooth, it would randomly switch into neutral or auto reverse while working it.

I took it back and got a Taiwan version of same. 72 tooth, nice chrome, holds its own. ("They" say chrome is easier to do right outside of the US now.) "They" also say the same factory makes Kobalt and HF ratchets in at least that size.

I'm happy with the tool, but sad that it had to be made twice, with the environmental impact of it all. My money went to an American; Lowes picked up the tab of the warranty replacement. Taiwan != China; they give their peons more rights.

It's less visible, but think of the $1000s spent a year by each of us on oil, 70% of which is foreign. There's no sticker on a gas pump about that content! I'm okay filling my shelves with tools of various origins: better to have tools than dollars in the bank. China's dumping now for "whatever reason"; at some point they'll pull the rug out and the dollar will be worth less and their Yuan more. They can't take my tools/skills/education though. I'd rather have a cabinet full of tools than an ounce of gold, for example. And buying gold rewards the bankers and whomever would sell us down the river with fewer scruples (and more control) than the 95% of relatively honest Americans. I'd trust anyone in this thread... anyone on this board... before one of those shysters.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Seems like you were saying your experience with HF was equally to other tool brands. Mine hasn't been. So you have to have a receipt for the HF warranty. Receipts aren't all that durable.


If you would CAREFULLY read my posts you would note that the ONLY time I needed to return an item was the tumblers. Have yet to need warranty service on any other item.

However if perchance if I happen to break my wifes $2.00 hammer I'm somewhat sure I can afford to buy another one and still only have $4.00 invested.

Actually I've had more Craftsman tools replaced from breakage than H/F. One Craftsman ratchet has been replaced 3 or 4 times, and a few sockets have been replaced. Tools replaced by H/F ZERO so far other than the tumbler. I'm happy with my experience. YMMV


I realize you are obstensibly reporting your experience but I have a hard time believing Harbor Freight tools are more reliable than Craftsman. That hasn't been my experience at all. I have broken Craftsman sockets, but have never experience junk to level of some Harbor Freight tools. I sure get the sense you cheerlead HF

. Or are you saying is you bought a $2 hammer there that is rarely used and a tumbler and the tumbler was bad? Have you used HF rachets and sockets?

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
..... A fair metric is the cost of living in a given nation. That's what the entire idea of a Global Economy should be based on. I have no qualms about buying German, English, French, Italian, Japanese...


Standing alone, it looks to be a poor metric.

Importing from a high labor cost source looks to be a double economic whammy. First, the local labor market is harmed because of the import. Second, instead of sending the minimum amount of money out of the local economy, importing from a high cost source sends even more money out of the local economy.

Is a nations economy better off sending $100K out the door for a Bavarian Motor Works Widget, or $10K out the door for a Beijing Motor Works Widget?

The answer seems obvious - the cheaper import, if otherwise satisfactory, leaves $90K to do some good in the local economy.

The line in the sand should have been drawn decades ago. Doing it now is too little, too late. When the argument is over where a wrench or ratchet should be made - we've already lost.

 

[mechanicx]

You do have a point. If someone (like my brother) buys a BMW, he sends about $30k or more out of the economy. You could probably almost buy up a Harbor Freight store's entire inventory with that lol.

But what really matters is volume as much as price or more importantly trade deficit. Few BMWs are sold in the US but lots of chinese products are sold here, and conceivably a $10k Beijing Motors Works widget would sell in great volume. That's why cost of living may still be a good metric as it seems to put a cap on how much imports can be dumped and how much trade deficit develops.

Still I do see your point. I personally don't see the justification for spending more and sending a large sum of money out of the US for say a BMW 5-series instead of a Cadillac CTS. Of course the BMW afficinados and the media can imagine reasons. Or maybe worse is an imported Korean car. That certainly does more to the trade deficit than buying an imported wrench. Although I would also say I'd rather be running the huge trade deficit with Germany than china between thew two.

There's nothing wrong with trade and buying imports per se but trade deficits I think are bad, and we have a huge one with china. China doesn't play fair and shuts down complete domestic industries (race to the bottom).

 

[ajchien]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


I realize you are obstensibly reporting your experience but I have a hard time believing Harbor Freight tools are more reliable than Craftsman. That hasn't been my experience at all. I have broken Craftsman sockets, but have never experience junk to level of some Harbor Freight tools. I sure get the sense you cheerlead HF

. Or are you saying is you bought a $2 hammer there that is rarely used and a tumbler and the tumbler was bad? Have you used HF rachets and sockets?


I must side with mechanix here. I've got a good number of tools from HF and craftsman. By far, there have been much more disappointment, breakage, warranty, wearing out, and overall regret with HF tools than compared to craftsman. Off the top of my head, maybe 15% of stuff from HF has been wasted money for me. Maybe 3% of my craftsman stuff has been wasted. It's too the point that when I buy from HF, I only buy when I need the tool soon - therefore if it's disappointing, I can return it and buy a different brand. Even then, some tools HF work a few times, and then wear down quickly. HF pliers are a prime example. But I don't want to bash HF too much, because they certainly do have some good tools at really cheap prices - like breaker bars, impact sockets ...

Actually, I tool buying algorithm goes something like this: for fun, scour flea markets, garage sales, and estate sales for classic truck brand tools for cheap. Don't need these per se, looking for good deals on something I might need ...

If I'm going to do something I need a tool for soon ... Price shop amazon, eBay, sears, home depot, and HF. Buy what's reasonable priced for me. Spending $10 for a KD brand online is preferable than $8 from HF. However, if it's $75 from Wright and $12 from HF, I'd buy the HF one - and see how it works and give it a chance first. If it sucks, it gets returned and I get the better brand.

If I need something NOW. It's craftsman, home depot, or HF - whatever makes sense, and who's open, and closest. I'm hoping it bails me out now. If so, I keep.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
Quote:

IMHO buying anything Chinese from anyone is treacherous by anyone, and i'm sorry but this applies to veterans also and i don't mean to single jcwit out.
What other word you you prefer? Again IMHO supporting a country who's leadership is bent on our financial (not political) demise is indeed treacherous not just wrong.

Agree or disagree thats my opinion.


Don't know why this is so hard for others to comprehend. The veteran point is so irrelevant to the spirit of the points being made, it really shouldn't be mentioned by folks on either side.....

Correct, it shouldn't be, but in this case it clearly was. And when the post specifically mentions "veteran", "supporting the Chinese in any way" being "treacherous by providing aid and comfort to the enemy" in the same sentence, then it becomes entirely relevant to this discussion. Or did you miss that? As only one identified veteran predominantly posted here as an HF buyer, apparently not too difficult for some to reach a conclusion about what was implied. Poster obviously wasn't referring to himself.

But, it's not too difficult to comprehend at all, you buy Harbor Freight when suits your needs and requirements, much as others here do. Based on your apparent agreement with the treacherous label above, that would include you. While I obviously don't agree with that severely warped characterization of any HF product buyer, I would say that it makes you hypocritical in this discussion. That's my opinion.

I do ammend one prior statement I made in this thread though, I now perfectly understand why this thread hasn't been locked.


Why can you not comprehend that being a veteran or not has absolutely zero bearing on the effect that making such purchases has. Being a vetran neither provides the right or the excuse related to those purchases. Its not an attack on veterans, its not an attack on jcwit, it is the fact that it is so absolutely irrelevant to the spirit of the discussion that it has zero bearing except to make people infuriated. Thus my comment a long while back about it being used as a crutch. Whether jcwit did or did not in this thread is not the point of the dialog at this point. The reality is that it holds no bearing to the effect it has on this country and its countrymen and employees and laborers and taxpaying public. So it is a pity that the aspect of veteran ever came up.

We thank them ALL for their service, dont want to deny them things earned, and they sacrificed for our opportuniuty. But that is why it makes me sadder to see the undercutting of our economy and manufacturing base. Those veterans fought so that we were on the top of the heap when it came to manufacturing, robust economy and being the world power.

That is changing, and we are in bed with our rival because of things like HF. Hopefully it doesnt erupt into a situation where we create many more disabled veterans...

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I realize you are obstensibly reporting your experience but I have a hard time believing Harbor Freight tools are more reliable than Craftsman. That hasn't been my experience at all. I have broken Craftsman sockets, but have never experience junk to level of some Harbor Freight tools. I sure get the sense you cheerlead HF

. Or are you saying is you bought a $2 hammer there that is rarely used and a tumbler and the tumbler was bad? Have you used HF rachets and sockets?


The hammer is only used as an example, however my wifes tool box contains one that has the short handle, I suppone because it seems a lot of women like to hold a hammer near the head instead of back on the handle? but whatever.

Other than that my only experience was with the tumbler, maybe I'm just the lucky guy, who knows? But I'm just tickled to death using my "junk", sorry for your experiences, but you'll get over it in time I'm sure. I have a feeling after you get a few more years under your belt and a whole lot more of life's knowledge behind you some of your attidudes will change. But then, I was wrong one other time too.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
..... A fair metric is the cost of living in a given nation. That's what the entire idea of a Global Economy should be based on. I have no qualms about buying German, English, French, Italian, Japanese...


Standing alone, it looks to be a poor metric.

Importing from a high labor cost source looks to be a double economic whammy. First, the local labor market is harmed because of the import. Second, instead of sending the minimum amount of money out of the local economy, importing from a high cost source sends even more money out of the local economy.

Is a nations economy better off sending $100K out the door for a Bavarian Motor Works Widget, or $10K out the door for a Beijing Motor Works Widget?

The answer seems obvious - the cheaper import, if otherwise satisfactory, leaves $90K to do some good in the local economy.

The line in the sand should have been drawn decades ago. Doing it now is too little, too late. When the argument is over where a wrench or ratchet should be made - we've already lost.







This is absolutely correct. What has happened to the textile industry? The electronics industry? The clothing industry? I could continue, but hopefully, you get the picture.
In regards to Harbor Freight, they portray themselves without airs, they are simply a purveyor of cheap Chinese tools. In some situations, purchasing there makes sense. If you want a long lasting, quality tool probably not. However, they are what they are. In some sense, I respect the honest approach.


If you want to talk about who has perpetuated the model that many people are railing about in this thread, let's go to where most people in this forum proudly purchase their lubricants. Yes, that's right WAL MART! If you do business with WAL MART, you basically open your books to them every year and are expected to cut unit cost to a point where to maintain the business relationship, a company is basically driven to overseas production. There have been thousands of examples of this, I'll focus on one, Stanley tools. I can go into Wally World and purchase a Stanley Socket set. It is less $$ than the Stanley 1/2" socket set that my Grandmother purchased for me as a birthday present in 1981. Is it the same quality? NO. Is it produced in the USA like my set? NO. Do some research and see how many USA businesses have gone belly up or been forced to produce overseas as a result of staying in the WAL MART supply chain.

Go try to buy an American TV set. Can be done only in name. RCA, Zenith, Westinghouse, etc names that represented quality for years now put on overseas [censored]. The last time I bought a pair of Florsheim dress shoes: made in Indonesia.

I could continue the rant but the point is clear: the war has been lost. I try to do what I can- my next push mower will be a Snapper because they said no to WAL MART. I have resorted to buying more tools on line or Menards because they tend to feature "Made in USA" tools or other offerings in their stores.

However the economics are simple and I will try to word this as simply as I can. A nation can't maintain $20-40 an hour jobs and say that they are going to go to WAL MART because they can get their socks for $4 a bag. Life just doesn't work that way.

 

[bigmike]

Seems a war on globalization is now the measuring stick on patriotism.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
..... A fair metric is the cost of living in a given nation. That's what the entire idea of a Global Economy should be based on. I have no qualms about buying German, English, French, Italian, Japanese...


Standing alone, it looks to be a poor metric.

Importing from a high labor cost source looks to be a double economic whammy. First, the local labor market is harmed because of the import. Second, instead of sending the minimum amount of money out of the local economy, importing from a high cost source sends even more money out of the local economy.

Is a nations economy better off sending $100K out the door for a Bavarian Motor Works Widget, or $10K out the door for a Beijing Motor Works Widget?

The answer seems obvious - the cheaper import, if otherwise satisfactory, leaves $90K to do some good in the local economy.

The line in the sand should have been drawn decades ago. Doing it now is too little, too late. When the argument is over where a wrench or ratchet should be made - we've already lost.







But it doesn't stand alone, as I made other statements and you chose to single out this one.

Mechanicx picked up on it: German cars aren't sold in high volume because of their price premium. This is because the people making them are earning similar or higher wages to those assembling a Cadillac or Lincoln. They are not undermining the North American auto industry in any way, shape or form.

People don't go buy BMW's because they are cheaper than cars produced here. You don't see BMW and Mercedes cars being sold at the automotive equivalent of Walmart. It is a fools errand to equate the erosion of the middle class, people who by and large aren't buying bimmers and benzes with the out-sourcing of standard goods like tools, clothing, shoes....etc.

The guy spending 100K on the BMW is likely putting FAR more money back into the economy through taxes on his property, income and other spending than the person buying the Beijing Widget. He's also not going to be working at a factory unless he's upper management to be able to make that purchase in the first place.

So in that vein, and in-line with my other post, the outsourcing that is happening INSIDE our industries in this nation is not being done with other first-world nations like Germany! No, it is being done with places like China to bolster the bottom line, and as another poster has mentioned, that has a great deal to do with the "Walmart mentality".

Everybody wants to think they are getting the "best deal", and since quality manufacturing done in North America costs money, to accommodate the price that Walmart wants to pay and still make money, the manufacturing gets shipped overseas. And consumer ignorance enables this.

And this is where I agree with you. the line in the sand should indeed have been drawn decades ago and it IS possibly too little too late. We cannot change the minds of the North American population who want to continue shopping at Walmart for that "great deal" and lament about the loss of American jobs while they buy useless Chinese toys for their kids.

By and large, nobody gives a rats [censored]. And that's the real problem.