Guzzler Quandary: Sell Low to Buy High?

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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
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That's because it's been totally debunked as another invalid attack by the hybrid haters. Nickel was the main "offender" in this line of attack, and the traction battery does contain nickel. What Art Spinella and company, and the other hybrid haters forget to tell you is that the amounts of nickel used in the traction batteries absolutely pales to nothing compared to the amounts of nickel already used, and constantly used in the production of steel from iron. As any metalurgist will tell you, there are an almost countless number of various different types of steel, some very common, some very special and rare, but a vast majority of them contain substantial amounts of nickel. Hybrid NiMH batteries are a miniscule fraction of the nickel already used by heavy industry around the world.

Another myth.

So, to turn this around, how do you justify the MUCH BIGGER hole in the ground that has to be dug to mine the ore to make one 6000# Suburban compared to the hole required to make a 2900# Prius. You forgot about the iron ore to make the body steel, didn't you...
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Approximately 90% of the steel produced today is simple carbon steel. Of the alloys containing nickel, most are only a few percent at best. Maybe up to 10% in some special alloys. Granted, I'm not familiar with all the steels/alloys used in the automotive industry but I'm willing to bet you grossly over exagerated the amount of nickel used. Besides, 75% of steel is recycled. How do we recycles those batteries?
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But how many trillions of tons of steel get produced every year? No, nickel is not included in every alloy of steel (but it's used in other applications as well). My point is simply that in the context of its overall use, the amounts used for the hybrid batteries is relatively small.

Recycling? Toyota already has a pipeline for recycling established, though it has not been used much yet. In fact, they have a program in which they pay a "bounty" for the return of any failed/removed hybrid batteries. It's not as if they're going to end up in landfills. When dealers and independent techs understand that they will be paid for every unit they handle, that should take care of the problem.
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After crunching numbers and knowing that I need a Suburban size vehicle and not needing two vehicles. I decided to put a new engine in my guzzler and live with it. A new car payment+tax+license+insurance vs paid off truck(paid cash for the engine)+$36 a year license+$24 a month insurance made me realize that I could live with what I have and still save money in the long run.
 
Everyone has to do their own analysis. If that works for you, great. So many people assume that those of us who like our hybrids, and find they work for us, believe that everyone should have one. That's just not true. Another classic example would be a low miler who's "stuck" with a suddenly and hugely depreciated big SUV or pickup. Such owners should NOT panic and run out and get a hybrid (or any other car, for that matter). The most economical course there will be to simply suck it up and drive as little as possible.
 
If you look at web sites in Europe for new cars you gets lots of info on CO2, so Lexus can do well with it's hybrids over there by selling themselves as being green. The same tactic will work to their detriment in the US, assuming that about half of the people don't think that global warming is nothing but a UN one world government conspiracy. I guess that's why they're pushing performance, as they've invested hevaily in hybrids and need to sell more in the US using something besides minimizing global warming.
 
Yes, the European perspective is certainly different from ours. I was not aware of that advertising strategy, but it certainly makes sense, given the priorities of the European buying public. This does raise an interesting question. It would seem that as to Prius, Camry, Highlander, and RX hybrids, they could certainly can make a valid pitch about lower carbon emissions based upon the way the engines perform. On the other hand, they probably can't make that pitch, at least not validly, as to the Lexus GS and LS hybrids. The LS would be the worst of the two, as it actually consumes more fuel, slightly, than it's conventional counterpart (and thus would produce more carbon emissions, presumably). Are they pitching the GS and LS this way?
 
The factor that is left out is why was the vehicle purchased in the first place. The same emotions will be used on the next purchase.
 
Steve:

You're hitting on an important consideration. Emotions are virtually always a part of car buying decisions (and most other such decisions too). Of course, it's a very complex issue to try to get a handle, since we each have our own emotions, and the extent to which we blend pure emotion with pure reason differs among individuals, and may differ from minute to minute with the same one individual. Look at me, did I really need to replace the Prius with a TCH? From a pure need perspective, no. But I did stumble upon a great opportunity (discounted 09 Camry Hybrid with only 5k miles, and Toyota Certified wty). My emotions leaned toward a more comfortable, quicker car that still gets good mileage. My wife's emotions lean toward kicking my arse for buying another car barely more than two years after the last...
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
So, to turn this around, how do you justify the MUCH BIGGER hole in the ground that has to be dug to mine the ore to make one 6000# Suburban compared to the hole required to make a 2900# Prius. You forgot about the iron ore to make the body steel, didn't you...
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Suburban versus Prius? Yeah, it's not even close. But I would be very surprised if a Suburban uses more energy and resources to build and operate than a high-end Lexus hybrid.
 
Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
So, to turn this around, how do you justify the MUCH BIGGER hole in the ground that has to be dug to mine the ore to make one 6000# Suburban compared to the hole required to make a 2900# Prius. You forgot about the iron ore to make the body steel, didn't you...
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Suburban versus Prius? Yeah, it's not even close. But I would be very surprised if a Suburban uses more energy and resources to build and operate than a high-end Lexus hybrid.


Tell that to Art Spinella. He's the for-sale mouthpiece who's on the domestic manufacturer payroll, and the head of the infamous CNW Research. For the last three years, he's put out the notorious "cradle to grave" studies, in which he claims that hybrids like the Prius require vastly more energy to make than even large SUVs like the Suburban or H2. Of course, in his "unbiased" studies, he does things like assuming that a Prius will last less than 100k miles, while at the same time assuming that the large SUV will last at least twice as long. In short, Spinella is a man without honor who will say whatever he's paid to say.

That's where my Prius vs. Suburban comparison came from. Funny how Spinella picks on the hybrids for the relatively small amount of nickel their batteries require, but somehow, he forgets how much raw material it takes to make a 6000 pound SUV.
 
"Emotions are virtually always a part of car buying decisions (and most other such decisions too). Of course, it's a very complex issue to try to get a handle, "

IT IS NOT ! HOW DARE YOIU SUGGEST THAT I GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!!!!



:^)
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Tell that to Art Spinella. He's the for-sale mouthpiece who's on the domestic manufacturer payroll, and the head of the infamous CNW Research. For the last three years, he's put out the notorious "cradle to grave" studies, in which he claims that hybrids like the Prius require vastly more energy to make than even large SUVs like the Suburban or H2. Of course, in his "unbiased" studies, he does things like assuming that a Prius will last less than 100k miles, while at the same time assuming that the large SUV will last at least twice as long. In short, Spinella is a man without honor who will say whatever he's paid to say.

That's where my Prius vs. Suburban comparison came from. Funny how Spinella picks on the hybrids for the relatively small amount of nickel their batteries require, but somehow, he forgets how much raw material it takes to make a 6000 pound SUV.


I remember the OT section thread on that ridiculous study!

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/459951/
 
Originally Posted By: MojaveK20
My Suburban is in a constant state of recycling


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Sounds like my dad's old burban! He had a 1980 that he used for work (contractor) until about 2002. It was pretty beat up by that time, due to being a magnet for idiot drivers. It was written off about five times and every time they'd give him the money, then he could re-safety it and keep using it without fixing the body. Despite the fuel consumption, it was a very economical vehicle!

My buddy is still driving his '88 Dodge Ram. We ran the numbers and it's still considerably cheaper to drive that than to get a new subcompact. He's thinking of getting a 1/4-ton with a smaller engine when it dies though.
 
Originally Posted By: firemachine69

Are you married? It's about the same deal with women...


Yes but one of these things is much, MUCH more expensive than the other.
 
firemachine:

This might be a good time to remind you who owns BITOG...
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...and if you do everything I tell you to from now to the end of eternity, I won't turn you in.
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Update: Fresh Goodwrench 350, stock with quadrajet, 4.10 rear, SM 465 in a 5985 lb Suburban.

14.8 mpg, not going over 65 mph. Me likee
 
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