NYTimes article on sludge

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have to believe the sludge phenomena is a direct result of car leases. Someone who "rents" a car for 3 years is not going to change the oil, because they have no incentive to. Its got a warranty for that period and after he gives it back, its the dealers problem. To someone who leases a car, an oil change is just an added expense and hassle.

Since the popularity of leasing, car manufacturers have factory filled with synthetic oil in order to give the motor the best chance of survival if the renter does not change the oil.
 
Isn't it against the law for Saab to specify that their branded oil filters MUST be used in order to facilitate warranty claims and such? I read about that Magnuson/Moss warranty (I think that is it) in the back of a Fram catalog of all places years ago when I used their filters.
 
Do you or SAAB9000 have accurate ( drain/dry ) sump capacities for any of these cars ? You are correct about the filter thing - needs looking into - could be reportage error as well .

dunno.gif
cheers.gif
 
Quote:


Do you or SAAB9000 have accurate ( drain/dry ) sump capacities for any of these cars ? You are correct about the filter thing - needs looking into - could be reportage error as well .

dunno.gif
cheers.gif





Mine takes 4.6 quarts when changing oil and filter. I believe that is standard for all the 2.3L motors.
 
Still waiting for the obligatory post along the lines of "the New York times is a left wing publication, I scoff at their biased coverage of motor oil issues/the price of tea in China/climate change/etc."
 
Weird part , really weird when you think about it , is they seem to be the only mainstream publication even covering with any depth at all .
You want to see some bias in action ? Go to the Autosafety. site and compare their docs on all these cars/engine . ( never mind what they took down )


Their strongest section by far is aimed at Chrysler . Their weakest section is toyota , so exact reverse of the number of vehicles involved and exact reverse on basic engineering responsibilties .
Now look at how they try and blame Chrysler by quoting their engineer out of context - the bit about chrysler using a 5 quart oil capacity on the 2.7L and the implication that must be the problem .

Now look at all the toyota stuff . See any mention of sump/oil capacity ?

Nope .

Now consider the actual capacities on just a few examples of the toyota installs involved . ( taken from AZ on line - can't find my better links )
1998 Chrysler Concorde..... 2.7L V6 5.0 Q W FILTER
1998 toyota sienna 1MZ-FE 3.0L V6 5.0 Q W FILTER
1997 toyota camry 1MZ-FE 3.0L V6 5.0 Q W FILTER
1997 toyota camry 5SFE...2.2L I4 3.6 Q W/O FILTER - APPROX 3.8 WITH .

So why no mention of the fact a 3.0L sienna MINIVAN with a 11% BIGGER engine has the SAME capacity as the 2.7L Concorde ?
dunno.gif


Evidently doesn't fit some agenda . My guess ; for toyota and against Chrysler
nono.gif
( Its not a " domestic " vs " asian " thing )
 
Read this and look at the numbers involved . Now consider the toyota numbers . See what I mean ?

DAIMLERCHRYSLER
October 15,2004 DaimlerChlysler Corporation
Clarence Ditlow
Lindsay Holden
Center for Auto Safety
1825 Connecticut Avenue, NW Suite 330
Washington, DC 20009-5708




Dear Mr. Ditlow and Ms. Holden:
I am writing in response to your letter of August 26,2004, regarding model year 1998-
2002 Dodge Stratus, Dodge Intrepid, Chrysler Concorde, and Chrysler Sebring vehicles
with 2.7-liter V-6 engines. In your letter you describe various reports that the Center for
Auto Safety has received in which consumers stated that the engmes in these vehicles
have failed due to oil sludge. Specifically, you list 92 reports from consumers who
reported to you that their vehicle had experienced an engine failure. The reports indicate
that the vehicle mileage at the time of the reported failures ranges fkom as few as 18,000
miles to as much as 180,000 miles. You request that DaimlerChrysler Corporation take
various actions including adoption of an extended warranty to remedy purported
“engineering mistakes” that allegedly cause oil sludge in, and the eventual failure of, 2.7-
liter V6 engines.
DaimlerChrysler Corporation appreciates your sharing the comments you have received
from consumers regarding their experiences with these vehicles. It is DaimlerChrysler
Corporation’s policy to evaluate and address specific consumer concerns on an individual
basis due to each consumer’s unique circumstances. The failure of an engine due to oil
sludge is not necessarily indicative of an “engineering mistake.” Oil sludge in engines
can result from a variety of factors, including a consumer’s failure to follow
recommended maintenance fiom the time of purchase forward.

Damage caused by poor maintenance in a vehicle's early life often cannot be
remedied by proper maintenance during the vehicles later life .

In fact , such early maintenance neglect is most likely to lead to premature
engine failure down the line .
In addition, DaimlerChrysler Corporation
takes exception with to the characterization of this type of engine failure caused by the
build up of oil sludge as a potential vehicle safety defect. It has been established that
such an event will only manifest itself as a result of improper maintenance, and after
considerable warning, allowing the operator to safely move the vehicle out of traffic in
such cases.


DaimlerChrysler Corporation records indicate that more than 1,070,000 model year 1998-
2002 Dodge Stratus, Dodge Intrepid, Chrysler Concorde, and Chrysler Sebring vehicles
with 2.7-liter V6 engir,es have been distributed. The 92 complaints referenced in your
letter constitute a very small fraction of these vehicles.
The wide variation in mileage for the reported engine failures, coupled with the limited
number of complaints, strongly suggests that individualized circumstances are a principal
contributing factor to the reported engine failures. While you indicate that many of these
consumers reported to you that they had followed recommended maintenance schedules,
a majority of the 92 complainants referenced in your letter purchased their vehicles
used .

These purchasers inherited their vehicles’ maintenance histories, perhaps without
sufficient knowledge, information or documentation of previous maintenance and
service. In addition, even the reports you reference in your letter indicate that several
consumers drove their vehicles for many years and for more than the expected vehcle
life as defined in many states before suffering any engine failure, G, Raenette
CrislerkIawkins (104,000 miles), Cheryl Huffmes (124,000 miles), and Phllip Johnson
(180,000 miles). Such extended usage before experiencing any engine failure supports
our conclusion that it is individual vehicle issues, including maintenance practices
throughout the vehicle’s life, instead of an “engineering mistake,” which has resulted in
the reported engine failures at lower mileages.
As the reports made to the Center for Auto Safety indicate, consumer experiences with
2.7-liter V-6 engines vary widely. And, because consumer use patterns and lack of
attention to routine maintenance (including by previous owners) can be the underlying
cause of sludge buildup and eventual engine failure, consumer complaints must be
considered on a case-by-case basis to ensure fairness to both the consumer and
DaimlerChrysler Corporation. Because consumer satisfaction is DaimlerChrysler
Corporation’s priority, we will review again the complaints of the consumers you shared
with us. Please ask them to contact DaimlerChrysler Corporation at 1-800-992-1997 and
we will do our best to review each case and reach a reasonable resolution.
Thank you for your interest in this matter.





Sincerely, Albert P. Motta
Customer Advocate Manager
A Company of the DaimlerChryskr Gmup
Daimlerchrysler Corporation
800 Chwler Drive
Auburn Hills MI USA 483262757

http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/phpZ00Pmh_Chrysler2.7Response.pdf

The CHRYSLER 2.7L DOES NOT belong in the same group as the toyota engines .
thumbsup.gif


Any formatting and spelling errors are mine and not Chryslers .
 
Last edited:
Please Read!!
Here is one of the forum's rules that I wanted to make sure that all of our members understand:

You agree that, except with Bobistheoilguy.com’s prior consent, you will not solicit or promote any products services or sites, nor self-promote (either in your Postings or in your profiles) for personal or business gain within the message board. You agree you will not use information supplied within the message board to solicit or promote any products or services via email or any other method. You agree to not gather public email addresses from member profiles for the purposes of spamming or soliciting members. You agree to not promote other auto forums that provide message boards or chats. Any posts uploaded to our site becomes the property of Bobistheoilguy.com.

If you have any questions about any of the forum rules, please contact one of your friendly neighborhood moderators .


http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post583555





Cbradmon ,

You have broken several forum rules of which this is just one - unless you have the permission discussed above .

offtopic.gif

Why is it people associated with Legal/Law Firms have such a hard time with simple things such as rules ?

ON TOPIC

Assuming you are not just a shill or some kind of legal hack or someone trying to derail a useful thread I'm still not happy with your attempt here to use BITOG for your personal gain and as a free solicitation device for your Law Business .

Speaking of solicitation , although I don't know how a competent Law Firm could have missed out on the toyota sludge issue for over eight years there are , in my opinion , still far more fertile fields to hoe in regards to toyota , say roughly another 10-20 issues worth looking into , involving millions of vehicles/owners rather than roughly less than 132,000 - 250,000 Saab owners .

Think of the money and the good you could really do .


Of course , if you really understood the sludge issue in regards to toyota you would realize its not neccessarily over for a firm willing to do the work , settlement or not .

Any way , I want you to join me in asking our moderator group to correct your error , bad taste , and bad judgement by deleting your post and not punishing the thread .
We've never been a Legal Post It Board and I think I speak for the majority here , I wouldn't want it to ,even in regards to toyota .
Speaking of toyota , have you noticed ,that during this big week of shame all of a sudden , theres been a lot of movement on the net towards every other brand in regards to legal issues ? I see it as providing smoke and cover for toyota as their billion dollar + settlement attempt rolls along , you know much like your post .

Of course , that maybe coincidental or unintentional , but I think its fair to ask , has your firm ever received compensation from toyota , or say The Center for Autosafety or some other third party that does work for toyota ?


If thats too embarrasing a question , I understand , your silence can provide an answer as well .
 
Last edited:
Here is the more direct information on how you just messed up .


http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post583551
REVISED FORUM RULES
1. Anyone who submits a registration is an applicant. Applicants may be accepted for membership after their registration is reviewed by the owner or his designated agent. No person may become a member unless he or she agrees to abide by these rules. Any member who does not agree to abide by these rules may have his or her membership terminated without notice by the owner in his sole discretion. No applicant has any right to membership, and whether or not to accept a new member shall be determined by the owner in his sole discretion.


3. These rules may be changed any time that the owner deems it necessary to do so. The owner’s decision to change the rules shall be at his sole discretion and is not subject to any form of outside review. The owner will make a reasonable effort to ensure that rule changes are posted in a timely fashion, however, the owner may enforce any rule, even if it has not yet been posted on the forum. Each member is responsible for informing himself or herself of these rules and any changes to them. Members are strongly encouraged to review the rules periodically, as ignorance of these rules, or any changes to them, shall not be an acceptable reason for violating them.

4. The general intent of these rules is to allow the owner and his designated agents to ensure that this forum remains a legal, healthy, and pleasant place in which members may freely exchange their ideas, within the bounds established in these rules.

5. Each member agrees that he or she shall not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of any person’s privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law. Whether or not a member violates this rule, and whether he or she should have their membership suspended or terminated as a result, shall be decided in the sole discretion of the owner or his designated agents. By accepting membership in this forum, members specifically agree that they shall not have any right to have the owner’s decision under this rule reviewed in any way outside this forum.

7. Members agree that the use of this forum to further the propagation of “spam” in any way, to flood, to advertise without permission, to participate in chain letters or pyramid schemes, or to otherwise solicit without permission, is absolutely prohibited. Members are cautioned that engaging in any of the described behavior shall be grounds for immediate suspension or termination of membership. Whether or not a member violates this rule, and whether he or she should have their membership suspended or terminated as a result, shall be decided in the sole discretion of the owner or his designated agents. By accepting membership in this forum, members specifically agree that they shall not have any right to have the owner’s decision under this rule reviewed in any way outside this forum.

8. Members agree that, except with the owner’s prior consent, they shall not solicit or promote any products, services or other sites by posting direct links of any sales pages of any products in this forum. Discussions of any products are allowed and encouraged, and links to Technical Data or MSDSs are allowed, provided that it follows the topic discussed. Members agree not self-promote (either in postings or in member profiles) for personal or business gain within the message board any links, unless previously approved by the owner or his designated agents. Members agree that they shall not use information supplied within the message board to solicit or promote any products or services via email or any other method. Members further agree to not gather public email addresses from member profiles for the purposes of spamming or soliciting members in any other way. Members agree to not promote or link to other forums that provide message boards or chats. Any posts uploaded to this forum become an integral part of it, and upon posting, become the property of the owner.


15. The intent of these rules is to reserve to the owner and his designated agents, the maximum authority to operate this forum so that it will remain a useful and positive resource for anyone who cares to become a member and participate. Any member who violates these rules shall be subject to have his or her membership terminated in the owner’s sole discretion. Whether or not a member has violated any of these rules, and whether his or her membership should be terminated as a result, shall be decided in the sole discretion of the owner. By accepting membership in this forum, members specifically agree that they shall not have any right to have the owner’s decision under this rule reviewed in any way outside this forum. Members agree that any such right deemed not extinguished by this rule, are irrevocably waived.
 
So Saab9000 ,
How does the SAAB community view this issue ? We seem to have bits and pieces of it here but I am curious how the informed enthusiast group looks at it in regards to their Marque .



Anybody ,

I still looking for the most convenient way to find accurate and detailed oil system capacities across brands , etc . I had 2 - 3 just can't remember where or how .
confused.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top