gun-control logic applied in auto-reverse

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Originally Posted By: Astro14

Adam Lanza, perhaps the most heinous of them all, didn't get his guns from a gun show, or on line, or a private sale.

He got them by murdering his own mother.


The very thing she kept to keep her safe not only ended her life but 26 other innocent people and little kids.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Feel confident and good, as it's not the first time I've found you obtuse!
smile.gif



I know you don't comprehend over 90% of what I say. It's pretty sad!
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Private sales ARE regulated. Federal law regulates them.

They are not subject to mandatory background checks. They don't have to go through the Federal system.


According to the way I read the law in WA, even private gun sales are supposed to have a background check for the buyer - only exceptions are in section 4a through 4g. Read it and see what you think. Of course, people ignore or don't know the real law so it never happens this way.

RCW 9.41.113
Firearm sales or transfers—Background checks—Requirements—Exceptions.


http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.113

(3) Where neither party to a prospective firearms transaction is a licensed dealer, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale or transfer through a licensed dealer as follows:
(a) The seller or transferor shall deliver the firearm to a licensed dealer to process the sale or transfer as if it is selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, except that the unlicensed seller or transferor may remove the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted. If the seller or transferor removes the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted, the purchaser or transferee and the seller or transferor shall return to the business premises of the licensed dealer and the seller or transferor shall again deliver the firearm to the licensed dealer prior to completing the sale or transfer.
(b) Except as provided in (a) of this subsection, the licensed dealer shall comply with all requirements of federal and state law that would apply if the licensed dealer were selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, including but not limited to conducting a background check on the prospective purchaser or transferee in accordance with federal and state law requirements and fulfilling all federal and state recordkeeping requirements.
(c) The purchaser or transferee must complete, sign, and submit all federal, state, and local forms necessary to process the required background check to the licensed dealer conducting the background check.
(d) If the results of the background check indicate that the purchaser or transferee is ineligible to possess a firearm, then the licensed dealer shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor.
(e) The licensed dealer may charge a fee that reflects the fair market value of the administrative costs and efforts incurred by the licensed dealer for facilitating the sale or transfer of the firearm.
 
Originally Posted By: BRZED
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Feel confident and good, as it's not the first time I've found you obtuse!
smile.gif



I know you don't comprehend over 90% of what I say. It's pretty sad!
laugh.gif



Either does anyone else.
wink.gif
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BRZED
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Feel confident and good, as it's not the first time I've found you obtuse!
smile.gif



I know you don't comprehend over 90% of what I say. It's pretty sad!
laugh.gif



Either does anyone else.
wink.gif
grin.gif



Had I known you not to be a native speaker, I would have not made fun of you. My sincere apologies!
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
But you can be prosecuted for selling to a prohibited person in a private sale. Perhaps someone from the BATF can explain why this never happens. It's a felony...that's never prosecuted...that's really my issue in this whole debate; we have lots of laws that aren't enforced...and the answer is: more laws??


You yourself said it's only a felony if the seller sells "to a person that he reasonably believes is prohibited from owning one".

How are you going to prove that? The seller would just have to say he sold to someone else. The seller is not required to keep any records whatsoever.

Making every sale go through a dealer while not being a panacea, would at least ensure that more sales go through the existing infrastructure of background checks.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Further, answer this question: what mass shooters, psychotic criminals that they are, would have been prevented in their actions by this background check?


Already gave you an example of a background check that failed because the state did not provide the information. This is one of the things that people want fixed.

Quote:
Virginia Tech shooter Seung-Hui Cho passed a background check before obtaining a gun and killing 32 people, despite having been declared mentally ill two years before. States are responsible for compiling mental health records from courts, hospitals, and other sources to submit to NICS, but they are not legally required to do so.
 
Originally Posted By: BRZED
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Either does anyone else.
wink.gif
grin.gif



Had I known you not to be a native speaker, I would have not made fun of you. My sincere apologies!


crackmeup2.gif
 
^^^ Maybe we are twin brothers? Either you or me, hey! And the "neithers" don't get you either.
smile.gif
 
The difference between a car and a gun is that a person needs a car to facilitate their survival. A gun is not necessary to survive in modern society. People will jump in and say it is but it really isn't.
 
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: Astro14
But you can be prosecuted for selling to a prohibited person in a private sale. Perhaps someone from the BATF can explain why this never happens. It's a felony...that's never prosecuted...that's really my issue in this whole debate; we have lots of laws that aren't enforced...and the answer is: more laws??


You yourself said it's only a felony if the seller sells "to a person that he reasonably believes is prohibited from owning one".

How are you going to prove that? The seller would just have to say he sold to someone else. The seller is not required to keep any records whatsoever.

Making every sale go through a dealer while not being a panacea, would at least ensure that more sales go through the existing infrastructure of background checks.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Further, answer this question: what mass shooters, psychotic criminals that they are, would have been prevented in their actions by this background check?


Already gave you an example of a background check that failed because the state did not provide the information. This is one of the things that people want fixed.

Quote:
Virginia Tech shooter Seung-Hui Cho passed a background check before obtaining a gun and killing 32 people, despite having been declared mentally ill two years before. States are responsible for compiling mental health records from courts, hospitals, and other sources to submit to NICS, but they are not legally required to do so.


TV - you proved my point: the background check system FAILED to catch Seung-Hui Cho. It failed because of privacy laws and the failure of the state to report his medical condition to NICS.

So, you're proposing that we include private sales under a system that didn't catch this psycho?

And that will work, how, exactly?

I'm proposing that we start enforcing the laws on the books. The Federal government states that millions of sales have been prevented by the NICS checks...and of those, how many were prohibited persons?

The number of prosecutions, out of those millions of prohibited sales, numbers in the dozens...so...there's clearly a great deal of room for improvement.

Funding government agencies isn't sexy, and doesn't allow politicians and lobbyists to crow about their accomplishments...but it does enable those agencies to do their jobs and enforce existing law.

Good luck piercing the medical privacy barrier to get that information to NICS checks...that's the one thing that would have caught Cho...who bought gun, not through the "loophole", but through a dealer, after passing a background check.

That's the problem with all the "feel good" legislation...it only feels good...it fails to accomplish. Make every sale through a dealer? Still get Cho...still get Adam Lanza...still get all of them...

So, what have you accomplished with that feel good legislation besides making it difficult for private citizens?
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The difference between a car and a gun is that a person needs a car to facilitate their survival. A gun is not necessary to survive in modern society. People will jump in and say it is but it really isn't.


You don't need a car to facilitate your survival. I've got friends in NYC that simply don't own/need one. That's modern society...unless you choose to live in the suburbs...then, by your choice of location, you need a car...but that's a choice, not a necessity.

And a gun is absolutely necessary to survive, if you happen to have a lethal threat presented. Even if you're able to call the police, they will take several minutes to an hour to arrive...

So, your survival in that moment is entirely up to you. You have the right to survive. You have the right to the means to survive.

That means is a firearm. Not harsh language. Most criminals will be bigger/stronger/outnumber their victims. The criminals aren't stupid. They plan the assault with the odds in their favor (surprise, strength, numbers)...and the only thing that equals those odds is a weapon.

And you have a Constitutional right to that defense, and that weapon...Massachusetts may not recognize your right, and for that, I'm sorry...but the US Constitution does...
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The difference between a car and a gun is that a person needs a car to facilitate their survival. A gun is not necessary to survive in modern society. People will jump in and say it is but it really isn't.


Lots of people don't own cars, and they survive just fine.

A gun could save your life better than a car ever could. It's pretty hard to run over a home evader with your car.
wink.gif
 
Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. They are going to be rolling out their annual $100 Mastercard gun buy back program with no questions asked!!!
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
TV - you proved my point: the background check system FAILED to catch Seung-Hui Cho. It failed because of privacy laws and the failure of the state to report his medical condition to NICS.


I have this feeling that as all these mass shootings keep going on, someday there will be laws were the privacy laws fore medical records will be fully accessible for a background check. I think it's inevitable, sad to say.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
That's the problem with all the "feel good" legislation...it only feels good...it fails to accomplish. Make every sale through a dealer? Still get Cho...still get Adam Lanza...still get all of them...

So, what have you accomplished with that feel good legislation besides making it difficult for private citizens?


Did you see my post with the WA law (RCW 9.41.113)?

I read it as any private sale needs to be through a licensed gun dealer who is supposed to run a background check on the buyer. The law is there (in WA at least), but I highly doubt many actually follow that law when selling their gun to a private party.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
TV - you proved my point: the background check system FAILED to catch Seung-Hui Cho. It failed because of privacy laws and the failure of the state to report his medical condition to NICS.


The law does not require states to report the information. Requiring them to do so through federal legislation would do so.

If that had been in place, Seung-Hui's background checks would have denied him obtaining guns through a dealer, which is what he was able to do.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
So, you're proposing that we include private sales under a system that didn't catch this psycho?

And that will work, how, exactly?


As you said earlier, background checks and private sales are two different topics. Seung-Hui purchased from a dealer and the background check failed to stop him getting a gun because his state did not report his information into the database.

But to answer your question about how would mandating private sales to go through a dealer help, it's simple.

Right now, in most states, a private sale does not trigger a background check nor does it create a record of the purchaser. But it is known that guns sold privately are more likely to end up in the wrong hands.

If you accept that dealer sales result in denials, then you would have to accept that this means private sales will also result in denials IF they go through a dealer. If they don't, there are no denials. Surely these denials are happening for a reason. I mean you and many others are all for stopping certain people from getting guns, you all say there is a mechanism for that, yet you don't want to put private sales through that mechanism?

Originally Posted By: Astro14
I'm proposing that we start enforcing the laws on the books.


Agreed. But remember that the laws differ state to state. So there has to be some federal standards to not weaken some of the existing laws.
 
As typical of some BITOGers (and the general public), you see this from the wrong side of the equation.


As many of you know, I focus on results, not inputs.

Why is my thread not meant to be political? Two reaons; first of all, it's against our policy here. I have repeatedly stayed away from that side, although some of you taunt the edge of that. Second is that politics (admittedly integral to the gun control debate) is an INPUT to the issue, not a result.

I FOCUS ON RESULTS. Just like I don't care what oil has what amount of boron or moly or calcium or .... I look at wear data to tell me how things are performing. I don't care what is in the bottle.

To that same degree, I look at regulation of any industry as as input. I do certainly believe that some amount of regulation is a good thing, as I've stated before. We want decent controls on how we build tall buildings and homes, how we design and build electrical appliances for safety, have some amount of gun sales controls, have a decent amount of training for doctors and lawyers, etc etc etc.

But OVER regulation shows no benefits. Look at the medical industry; it is the third leading cause of death in the US despite the "intent" of helping. A major tennant of the Hippocratic oath? Do no harm. But iatrogenisis is FAR more dangerous than any gun will ever be, regardless of whose hands it's in.


I don't care about politics, because politics hasn't shown to be an effective input to this equation. Some States have lax gun laws, others have tight gun laws. To some degree, those with tighter regulation seem to have more gun problems. However, when you look at the world view, the US is sort of "in the middle". We have VERY prominent gun ownership, but our murder rate is mid-ground. Those countries with poor governments and tight control have very high murder rates per capita. Western Europe is sort of an anomoly. But I contend that it really does not matter, because when gun violence is low in modern countries, other forms of murder (both individual and mass events) exist via other means! Have no gun in western Europe? Use an IED ...



Again, my point to this thread is that a man killed his entire family with a car. No one peeps a word about more and stricter licensing of the person or weapon, or holding the OEMs fiscally liable.

But when someone shoots another group using an assault rifle, woe unto those who own them, because the outcry from some is deafening.


What I ask, in a rhetorical sense, is WHY this dichotomy of attitude? Clearly I have proven by now that the mode of death (weapon chosen) has no bearing on the severity of death (dead = dead regardless of the method). For those who believe more control over fireamrs is necessary, where is you proof that it matters?

QUIT FOCUSING ON POLITICS; THAT IS AN INPUT.
SHOW ME RESULTS THAT INDICATE A TANGIBLE EFFECT COMES FROM OVER-REGULATION!
If you cannot show this, then your viewpoint is flawed and has no logical basis.


This is supposed to be a "teachable" moment in terms of how to view, well, just about anything in life.

If you manipulate an input, but it has no effect on the result, then it is of no importance, despite your emotional attachment to the topic.
 
Last edited:
denewton,
agree with your argument.

Australia has widely advertised succesful gun laws.
2014, 18 years after the successful laws, father kills his family and then himself, it's a gun problem.
Father drives family car into a dam, murdering them (he miraculously survived), it's a mental health issue.

As to one statistic that IS materially changed by lack of access....
Suicides by firearm are down
however suicides by all causes in total are on the rise.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Why is my thread not meant to be political? Two reaons; first of all, it's against our policy here. I have repeatedly stayed away from that side, although some of you taunt the edge of that. Second is that politics (admittedly integral to the gun control debate) is an INPUT to the issue, not a result.

I'm sure you're sincere when you say this. As in, I believe you think what you're saying makes sense. And I'd defend you against anyone who says otherwise.

I Googled the word "politics." Here was the first result:

Quote:
the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.


Same process for the word "regulation:"

Quote:
a rule or directive made and maintained by an authority.

...

the action or process of regulating or being regulated.


In the case of gun control, the regulation in question comes from government agencies. Saying you want to talk about it without getting into politics is like saying you want to talk about corporate profits without getting into finance. The sentiment is fair enough to have, but impossible by definition to gratify.

I wonder if your interpretation of "politics" is that it means "partisan bickering." If so, the disclaimers make sense -- you want to talk about gun control without people blasting each other's partisan affiliations per se. But the next problem would be reconciling this case with the fact that we can't even say beep about climate change, even if the discussion is purely scientific.

Moreover, as I said earlier, I was under the impression that the point of the RSP ban was to prevent discussions that breed hostility. This thread has bred a large amount of hostility, and -- let's be fair -- you saw that coming.

So, no matter what the interpretation, we're back to square one: a moderator intentionally doing things that are against the stated ethos of the forum.

...Unless that ethos has changed. In which case, given your evident sincerity, I'm sure a full and explicit clarification will be forthcoming.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The difference between a car and a gun is that a person needs a car to facilitate their survival. A gun is not necessary to survive in modern society. People will jump in and say it is but it really isn't.



Guess you've never heard of feet, bicycles, horses, buses, trains, etc. A car is certainly not required as there are numerous other transportation options. A gun certainly isn't required either for day to day survival but in the case of someone attacking you they're aren't any options close to as easy to use or nearly as effective.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The difference between a car and a gun is that a person needs a car to facilitate their survival. A gun is not necessary to survive in modern society. People will jump in and say it is but it really isn't.



Guess you've never heard of feet, bicycles, horses, buses, trains, etc. A car is certainly not required as there are numerous other transportation options. A gun certainly isn't required either for day to day survival but in the case of someone attacking you they're aren't any options close to as easy to use or nearly as effective.


Most of this country is rural. There is no easy access to trains or busses and cabs are very expensive. Walking or biking multiple miles is not practical and nearly impossible in the weather. There are millions who don't have guns and don't miss them.

I can't really believe a smart guy like astro would try and make that argument. You, well, it doesn't surprise me. How backwater do you need to be to think a gun is a necessity?

There are many ways to accomplish self defense without a gun. Hundreds.
 
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