Group III v. Group IV--- Go ahead attack me!

[MolaKule]

About every 200 years we go into a period where the weather drops to very cold temps in the winter.

I find it interesting that when we have cold winters and cool summers, no one talks about the pseudoscience of Global Warming, but have some hot summers in a row and the Chicken Littles start proclaiming, "Global Warming"

Bcck to the Topic!

"THe NRPA report shows that Group IIIs are much more receptive to pour point depressants, but even w/o PPD's their pour points are generally comparable or superior to that of PAOs - which seems quite intriguing."

Some time ago, in the intersting articles thread, I wrote a critique on those three papers by the Chevron people, which btw, were written by three authors, two managers and one chemist.

I still have those three papers and it was stated that one of the weaknesses of Group III's was the high pour point.

As far as being receptive to pour point suppressents, they had to develop a new set of additives for Group III's, including pour-point depressents.

I see Group III's as an incremental improvement in petro oils, but they are still not synthetics. Lower sulfur content and fewer saturated hydrocarbons. but not synthetic. One of my most critical assesments of Group III's is the fact they are not true synthetics, but the Group III products are being priced as if they were.

 

[PandaBear]

Before you pay more for any synthetic you need to ask yourself why. If all you need is to prevent sludge then any SL oil should be good enough for you, and I mean it, any oil.

If you want to have extended drain of 10k or so, I don't think a group III will be able to do it. The real question is: what do you want your oil to do and is there any cheaper alternative that satisfy the same goal. For me, it is either a dino oil and change frequently or PAO with long drain, something in the middle for the same price as PAO is not a good deal to me.

 

[metroplex]

I want superior low temp protection for my engine - that means I want the oil to fly to my camshafts and protect my piston rings and valve stem seals.

 

[metroplex]

Ok I did my own testing.

ILSAC GF-3/API SL Pennzoil PureBase 5W-30
an un-named Group III 5W-30 API SL/ILSAC GF-3

I placed both bottles outside for about 30 minutes (ambient is 34F)

then pour a little of each into its own separate dixie cup.

both kept outside for another 30 minutes.

I poured the contents of the cups into an add'l pair of cups and noticed the differences (if any).

The Group II+ poured out slower and had a much thicker consistency - even with the cup fully vertical it took awhile before it started dripping.

The group III just poured right into the other cup and started dripping immediately.

This test wasn't meant to explore the stable pour points of each oil, but to show that even during normal op temps - the Group III flows better. I did oil changes during similar temperatures and it always took forever to drip out from the engine and new oil from the bottle. I don't think that's very healthy for an OHC engine?

 

[MolaKule]

You took fully formulated oils with different types of PP depressents.

Take some unformulated base oil SAE20 Group I or II and some Group III and run the same test.

 

[Patman]

Try that same test again when it's colder out, but use a real synthetic, vs the group 3, and you'll see a big difference.

 

[dragboat]

Or better yet,,trust the data sheets provided by the manufacture when trying to compare these various oils

 

[MolaKule]

And very few real scientists are taking a look at the variability of the Sun's "solar radiation output."

Why. Global Warming and ozone are politically closer to home, whereas you can't do anything about the Sun. Never mind that Global Warming and the ozone scare have no scientific basis.

 

[tweeker43]

IMHO
the only reason(s) to use a group III synth over a group IV synth are:
1) don't plan on extending drains past the manufacturer's recommendations
2) you have a problem with a company's business practices.

what i find interesting about the previous ice age is that woolly mammoths and other livestock are found frozen solid, essentially freeze-dried, with partially digested vegetation in the stomach. this could indicate an extremely quick, hard drop in temperature. many of these animals were already acclimated to colder weather, so something catastrophic must have happened. had the change been gradual, even 10 years, then it is most likely that they would have migrated towards food and warmer weather.

 

[TooSlick]

Metroplex,

Take a quart of Mobil 1, 0w-30 and a petroleum based 5w-30/10w-30 and stick them in the freezer overnight, then repeat the test. Make sure the freezer is set at 0F if you can.

 

[Dipstick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by metroplex:

No it was on more than one occaison. The general temperature for the past winter has been abnormally high in this region.

Regardless, one day of 50-60F weather in the middle of January where in the past 3 decades or so has been roughly 0-20F tops indicates a rapid change in the weather. For the month of october, we had a few days where it spiked into the 80s-90s then suddenly went back down to the 50s.
Now its in the low 30s. This is NOT consistent ambient temperature for this region. George Carlin (or whatever his name is - the guy with the pony tail) was an idiot for saying "if its global warming, why am I freezing my a$$ off."

I could run in a t-shirt + shorts for several days in that one week in January. The winters are becoming warmer and warmer.

---

Read this: Ice age cometh?

 

[98 Z28]

It was none other than the Flood of Noahs day.

 

[metroplex]

MolaKule: I took Pennzoil PureBAse 5W-30 and a group III 5W-30.

One is Group II/II+, the other is Group III.

If I compared Group III to Mobil 1, both would have different PP depressants.

as a comparison: Chevron's Group III has a much lower PP than Mobil 1 at the same weight.

The Group III I used has a pour point of -45C, while the Pennzoil is -42C.

 

[Pinecone]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay:
Group IV and V basestocks are demonstrably superior to group III. Even Chevron, that invented the hydrcracking process, concedes this:

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/papers.shtml

Look for the paper, "The Synthetic Nature of Group III Base Oils."

Not only does Castrol Syntec not measure up to Mobil 1, it doesn't compete very well against other group III oils, especially Chevron Supreme Synthetic, that sell for less.

---

HOw do you figure that?

From the abstract;When properly designed, these Group III oils, particularly the newer Group III base oils made via all-hydroprocessing routes, can match or exceed the most critical performance characteristics of PAO. This includes viscosity index, Cold-Cranking Simulator viscosity, Noack volatility, and oxidation stability. We show data to demonstrate such performance. "

And from the paper; "Modern Group III base oils perform at a level that is significantly higher than “conventional” base oils, both Group I and Group II, and substantially match existing levels of performance in finished lube applications already established by their traditional synthetic counterparts. In fact, many, like Chevron's UCBO, were specifically designed to perform like PAOs in the vast majority of
finished lube applications."

And; "Oxidation Stability – Oxidation and thermal stability are among the most important advantages
that “synthetics” bring to the table. Better base oil stability means better additive stability and
longer life. High stability is the key to making the premium-quality finished oils of the future
with longer drain intervals. Here Group III oils routinely challenge PAO performance.

...Moreover, the performance of the Group III product was essentially the same as that
for the oil formulated with PAO."

And their conclusion; "Analysis of the feed and product from a commercial Group III production run show that a vast majority of feed molecules are synthetically altered by the three catalytic processes used to make modern all-hydroprocessed Group III base oils. These results support the claim that modern Group III base oils made utilizing an all-hydroprocessing route are essentially man-made or synthetic. In addition, their high performance in lubricant applications allows them to be used in high performance products often formulated with traditional synthetics such as PAO."

[ October 26, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[Cooper]

Quite funny how the Global Warming debate has changed in the last few years. Anyone in this thread change their mind since then?

Oh yeah, good topic of GIII vs. GIV.