Group III v. Group IV--- Go ahead attack me!

Messages
3,635
Location
St. Charles County, Missouri
Here's my (not too serious) thesis: Castrol Group III, for all intents and purposes, was just as good as Mobil 1. It's just a matter of breaking apart larger molecules v. putting together smaller ones. The real superiority of Mobil was in their marketing department, not their chemistry. Not only their synthetic product but their dino. products have now been tarnished forever by the fact that they cheated. In reality both Castrol and Mobil are roughly equal. Only the PR guys are demonstrably superior at Mobil! Have at me! [Duh!]
 

Al

Messages
19,162
Location
Elizabethtown, Pa
OK you asked for it [Big Grin] . I think that where the Syntec falls short is in the extended drain interval catagory. I think that Syntec requires more VI and it also has a tendency to shear down more than the Mobil. I think that Castrol comes in first place for "cheating". They practically invented the word. Personally I wouldn't buy Castrol even if it were better than Mobil 1. [Eek!]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,989
Location
Oakville, Ontario
I've seen Syntec oil analysis results where it has sheared back to a 20 weight very quickly, even their 10w30! Simply put, it's a crap oil. Mobil 1 10w30 doesn't shear back to a 20 weight very easily at all, usually only when it's diluted with fuel. There is nothing special about Syntec at all that would command it's high price tag. Up here it sells for more than Mobil 1! I would use GTX long before I'd use Syntec. GTX has shown to be a good oil (at least in 10w30 form) in oil analysis results I've seen. I've never seen a good Syntec oil analysis.
 

Jay

Messages
1,607
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
Group IV and V basestocks are demonstrably superior to group III. Even Chevron, that invented the hydrcracking process, concedes this: http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/papers.shtml Look for the paper, "The Synthetic Nature of Group III Base Oils." Not only does Castrol Syntec not measure up to Mobil 1, it doesn't compete very well against other group III oils, especially Chevron Supreme Synthetic, that sell for less.
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
So what are the major differences between Group III and PAO oils BESIDES: extended drain interval extreme high temperature breakdown Basically, why should I go with a PAO over a Group III if extended drain intervals and racing/towing/severe duty driving are NOT primary concerns (serious question)?
 
Messages
5,069
Location
Saratoga, NY
metroplex, if those criteria are of no concern to you, you probably don't need to bother with ANY form of synthetic. A group II or II+ oil for $100-$1.75 should suit you fine. When you are paying extra for synthetic, you are paying extra (mostly) for their ability to flow in extreme temperatures and for greater lengths of service. We know that Group III oils cost roughly one half as much as Group IV oils (PAO). Given that, the fact that they are roughly the same retail price means that they are a total RIP OFF [Mad] and should be avoided based on principle if for no other reason! [Thumbs Down!] --- Bror Jace
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
Low temp flow IS a primary concern, along with reduced piston ring wear. It also needs to keep the valve stem seals (usually a polyacrylate material) well lubricated and soft. That's the one thing Group II and II+ oils can't provide, unless I am incorrect?
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
oh yeah, the reason low temp flow is a concern is because I want my engine to be well lubricated asap during cold starts in the winter - where the engine wears down the most.
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,989
Location
Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by metroplex: oh yeah, the reason low temp flow is a concern is because I want my engine to be well lubricated asap during cold starts in the winter - where the engine wears down the most.
Then you definitely need a PAO/Ester Synthetic or a good PAO blend like Schaeffers, which all exhibit excellent cold weather behavior.
 
Messages
5,069
Location
Saratoga, NY
Metroplex, it was a little late on a long day when I posted that message above. low temp pumpability is, for folks up north, one of the most obvious advantages of synthetic oils. [Duh!] But, with you being in New Jersey, how cold does it get, really? A couple years ago my Dad's '94 Mercury was burning so much oil, I wouldn't get him anything thinner than 10W30, and it wasn't even a synthetic. He got through a Saratoga County, NY winter just fine with temps below zero (F) fairly common. I know a guy "George," who I am trying to get to come to this board, and he has used Castrol GTX 10W30 dino for years in (northern?) New Jersey without problems and keep his cars well past 100,000 miles. So, I just can't see low temps being a critical issue in your neck of the woods. --- Bror Jace
 

Al

Messages
19,162
Location
Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by metroplex: oh yeah, the reason low temp flow is a concern is because I want my engine to be well lubricated asap during cold starts in the winter - where the engine wears down the most.
You appear to want to talk yourself in getting less by paying more. If the cold weather thing is important-in New Jersey any 5W-30 oil would be fine. Especially since you are not looking for extended drain intervals. As was mentioned the Group III's (except for Shaffers don't perform up to the level of group IV's except for cold weather pour points. So why pay the same price for a group III which is inferior to afroup IV or V? I don't understand. With the Group IV you can have your cake and eat it too. As was also mentioned Shaffer would be a good choice. Its Superior to any of the over the counter Group III's and half the cost.
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
its not the extreme low temp pumpability that i need, its the low temp flow capabilities of a synthetic that I require. My dad used 10W-40 in his 1981 Ford T-bird, 302 V8 for the past 22+ years. He would change it every 3 months. What happened at 22 years? Piston rings are weak - not seating very well. Valve stem seals became little rocks. It was burning oil pretty badly! How many miles did it have? 94k ORIGINAL miles - (no abuse/racing/towing/etc). I don't want that to happen with my new engines. So you're saying Schaeffer's (which I have to buy over the internet??? like amsoil?) is better than the other OTC Group III synthetics? Or that I don't need a group III at all and a group II+ would suffice? I was reading an article written by the NPRA regarding: Synthetic Nature of Group III Base Oils, and in the end it appeared Group IIIs were "comparable" to PAOs - PAOs being superior of course. I just can't find PAOs at the same exact price or even in the same range as a Group III in NJ. So far every state other than NJ has Mobil 1 at $3.37-$4/qt. [Frown]
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
The lowest temp in the winter would be 0F ambient (with global warming and all). At this temperature, Group II+ and II oils would start flowing a tad like molasses. I've changed my oil at this temperature before and it took forever to drain it and clean out the drain pans. I haven't changed my oil in this temp with a group III or a PAO, BUT I did change my gear oil in this temperature using a PAO synthetic gear lube. The non-synth 80W-90 flowed like pure molasses. The synthetic 75W-90 Pennzoil flowed like water - this was my first experience in dealing with synthetics and I was sold immediately. Now i learn Ford Mercon-V is a Group III (some market it as a synthetic blend tho) that performs just like a PAO (check out Mercon-V vs. Amsoil ATF specs - Mercon-V has maybe 1C higher pour point than Amsoil), which explains why that Mercon-V poured into my AOD like it was water, and that the old Mercon drained out like it was liquidy maple syrup in the winter.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,597
Location
Iowegia - USA
"The lowest temp in the winter would be 0F ambient (with global warming and all)." Don't you mean Global Cooling? Take a look at Schaeffer's 10W30 (PAO) Blend (#703): SAE Grade 10W-30 Viscosity @ 40°C, Cst (ASTM D-445) 62.00-70.00 Viscosity @ 100°C, Cst (ASTM D-445) 10.00-12.00 High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity 302°F/150°C, cP (ASTM D-4683) 3.5 Cold Cranking Viscosity (ASTM D-5293) @-25°C, cP 4,500 MRV Borderline Pumping Temperature °F/°C (ASTM D-3829) -28° to-30.22° BTW Metro, if doesn't flow it ain't goin' to pump.
 
Messages
5,785
Location
Dixie
The Petro Canada, 5w-40 "Duron" synthetic has a borderline pumping temp of -40F and a pour point of -60F. It sells for about $14.00/gallon and is an excellent value for gas and diesel engines. I think it is significantly better than the other Group III oils out there .... Viscosity @ 100C, 15.2 Cst VI, 177 HT/HS @ 150C, 4.2 Cp Noack Volatility, 11% CCS @ -25C, 2600 Cp TBN, 11-12 If you live in the Northern US or Canada and can buy this oil, it's a great deal ....
 
Messages
64
Location
Eckville, Alberta
I run the Petro Canada 5w-40 "Duron" synthetic in both my 1996 Ford F150 with a 300 Inline 6 and in my 2001 VW Jetta with a TDI. This is excellent oil that I am very pleased with. I just made 4 trips of approx. 1000 kms each way with the truck pulling a heavy trailer. I drove the living crap out of the truck. Meaning most of the trip was in 3rd gear with the pedal to the floor. The pedal was very seldom not held to the floor for the entire 14 hours of each trip. I posted the Oil Analysis for the oil after the first 2 trips and I was impressed. I credit the oil. Please post your oil analysis in our used oil analysis section as refferals to other boards are not allowed, thxs, b. HL [ October 24, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
quote:
Don't you mean Global Cooling?
No i meant Global Warming. I was running outside w/ a t-shirt + pair of shorts in the middle of January early this year. This is the first time its been 50-60F in the middle of January in Northeast NJ. Every single year it would have been low 20s/mid 30s MAX. Anyhow, those viscosity ratings seem kind of fishy. Why such a big range? I think practically every single Group III/PAO has the 40C rating at 60-70, and the 100C rating at 9-11! I don't see the Duron oil anywhere in NJ. Shell has the Rotella-T 5W-40 for slightly more than the SuperTech Synthetic, but the 5W-40 to me would be full of VIs due to its weight spread (45!!! [Eek!] ) I read the NPRA report and they show that with extremely intricate testing, you can see that Group III oils (modern ones) are almost 100% synthetic (converted from the base stock in a way that it no longer performs like a natural base stock oil) - which to me is amazing.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,597
Location
Iowegia - USA
[Off Topic!] "No i meant Global Warming. I was running outside w/ a t-shirt + pair of shorts in the middle of January early this year. This is the first time its been 50-60F in the middle of January in Northeast NJ. Every single year it would have been low 20s/mid 30s MAX." So one outlier year indicates Global Warming? Maybe we should take this to the "Off Topic Thread."
 
Messages
2,230
Location
SE MI
[Off Topic!] No it was on more than one occaison. The general temperature for the past winter has been abnormally high in this region. Regardless, one day of 50-60F weather in the middle of January where in the past 3 decades or so has been roughly 0-20F tops indicates a rapid change in the weather. For the month of october, we had a few days where it spiked into the 80s-90s then suddenly went back down to the 50s. Now its in the low 30s. This is NOT consistent ambient temperature for this region. George Carlin (or whatever his name is - the guy with the pony tail) was an idiot for saying "if its global warming, why am I freezing my a$$ off." I could run in a t-shirt + shorts for several days in that one week in January. The winters are becoming warmer and warmer. [Smile] Now to go back on topic: THe NRPA report shows that Group IIIs are much more receptive to pour point depressants, but even w/o PPD's their pour points are generally comparable or superior to that of PAOs - which seems quite intriguing. Almost 100% of modern Group IIIs are "synthesized" or converted from the natural base components (according to the report).
 
Top