Grounding radiator and heater core

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Should I ground the radiator and heater core?

On two of my Fords, both the heater core and radiator sprung leaks eventually.

Ford has a TSB where you ground the heater core to eliminate electrolysis in the core.

Any ideas?

I've heard that grounding the core and radiator speed up the electrolysis process.
 
Do some research on the topic "galvanic cell".

When two dissimilar metals are bathed in a conductive solution, and an additional path for electricity is provided between the metals, one of the metals will corrode.

Grounding a coolant component that was once not connected is a recipe for corrosive damage.
 
Isn't the radiator "connected" via the coolant?

Why did Ford issue a TSB to ground the heater core?

quote:

Do some research on the topic "galvanic cell".

When two dissimilar metals are bathed in a conductive solution, and an additional path for electricity is provided between the metals, one of the metals will corrode.

Grounding a coolant component that was once not connected is a recipe for corrosive damage.

The body isn't bathed in a conductive solution. Only the aluminum radiator/heater core/iron block/aluminum heads. The additional path is provided between the bathed aluminum radiator/brass heater core to the body - does this make any sense?

[ February 22, 2003, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:
Isn't the radiator "connected" via the coolant?

Why did Ford issue a TSB to ground the heater core?

The body isn't bathed in a conductive solution. Only the aluminum radiator/heater core/iron block/aluminum heads. The additional path is provided between the bathed aluminum radiator/brass heater core to the body - does this make any sense?


When two dissimilar metals are exposed to an electrolyte (which coolant can be), a voltage is created between the two metals, like a battery. If nothing is connected together (like putting a wire across the battery terminals) nothing happens, they two metals have a difference in electrical potential but can't do anything about it. But if they are connected together (as in, both to ground), the galvanic reaction is sustained and one of the metals corrodes. Since the engine is already connected to ground, connecting the heater core to ground is completing an electrical circuit.

[ February 22, 2003, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
How would it be completing a circuit?

The engine is grounded, and the body is grounded.
There's no +12V DC involved (not directly at least). so wouldn't grounding the heater core simply be just that rather than completing a circuit?

[ February 22, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]
 
What happens is that the glycol and additives will breakdown due to heat, which in turn becomes acidic, which creates an electricly charged solution which usually is attracted to the metals. In diesel engines for example, the liners normally become the first thing to spring a leak due to electrolsis, unlike a gas engine, it's usually the radiator.

The best ways to eliminate this is to watch the acidity levels of the fluid by using a PH strip, get from some swimming pool chemical supply, walmart may also carry it., check for neutral balance of 7. If too much acidity, you can either treat it or better yet, flush and change the fluid.

I use the schaeffers Clean and Cool myself which maintains and neutralizes the acids as well it breaks the ionic water tension so that it makes the water wetter giving it a better cooling effectivness . Redline appears to have a water wetter which is simular to the Clean and Cool which breaks the ionic tension but not sure if it neutralizes acids like schaeffers does. I suspect it also will cost more as most of their products do compared to schaeffers.

[ February 22, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: ED P. ]
 
I am familiar with that - however what we're dealing with here are not two differently charged metals with a conductive solution where a wire that connects them would indeed complete a circuit.

What we're dealing with are two identically charged metals with a conductive solution that has stray opposite charges.

in electrical engineering, grounding the radiator and grounding the heater core would simply make them part of the grounding system rather than keep the containers isolated from the stray charges - its not completing any circuit becuase the core and radiators are not positive or negatively charged, the coolant can hold some positive charge.

[ February 22, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: metroplex ]
 
Take the 12V battery out of the car.

Now what you have is many grounded systems constituting one common potential.

Let's say the engine is made of iron, the radiator out of aluminum, and the heater core out of copper, all connected together through the coolant, but not with ground.

Now both the radiator and heater core are not connected to ground. What happens?

If the coolant has ANY electrolyte properties at all, a voltage potential will develop between dissimilar metals.

The copper heater core becomes cathodic relative to the iron block, and the aluminum radiator becomes anodic relative to the iron block. A voltage develops on the metals, if you put a voltmeter across these dissimilar metals you would measure a voltage difference.

Now since these three components are not all connected together, there is no path for the voltage to satisfy itself, and they keep thier voltage potential without any galvanic corrosion occuring (beyond what it takes to create the voltage potential.)

Now let's take your idea and connect the radiator and the heater core to the car's ground. Remember, the battery is still out of the car.

You have created a path for the current to flow between anodes and cathodes. Now if you put a voltmeter across the different components, you would now read 0 because there is no voltage across a short. However, there is current flowing through your ground connections, satisfying the desire of the voltages (created by dissimilar metals sharing the same electrolyte) to be equal. That doesn't mean the metals don't have a relative potential anymore, it just means you can't measure it outside the system.

Now that all the dissimilar metals are connected together, there will be non-stop galvanic corrosion. There is a constant chemical reaction causing current to flow THROUGH THE GROUND CONNECTIONS WHICH HAVE ONE COMMON POTENTIAL RELATIVE TO THE REST OF THE CAR.

Whatever is most anodic will now be losing mass at it's surface into the electrolyte, using up the inhibitors, and making the coolant more acidic, which accelerates the process!
 
I see your point, its the dissimilar metals soaked in a solution that causes the reaction.

What if the heater core and radiator was made of aluminum? And the block was made of iron but the heads were made of aluminum? (Common scenario with modern Ford V8s).

The coolant is somewhat conductive, and ford states that a voltage greater than 0.4V (tested in the coolant relative to the battery ground) requires troubleshooting.

Now what should I do to prolong the life of the heater core and radiator? Add more engine grounds?
Cut the grounds to the heater core and radiator?

Bear with me - I'm not trying to be argumentative on purpose, I want to figure this out because replacing heater cores can be a PITA and so far with Fords its a 100% chance of having a heater core failure.
 
If all the components in your cooling system are the same metal alloy, you wouldn't need to worry about galvanic corrosion. But within the engine itself, there are dissimilar metals all connected to the same ground.

Therefore, #1 you need a coolant with a good inhibitor package. #2, you need to change the coolant when the inhibitor package is used up. I'd use test strips over measuring voltage anyday.

I would leave the car the way it was made. Meaning if the radiator is grounded, leave it that way. But if somebody added a ground after the car was produced, I would considering disconnecting it.
 
quote:

Originally posted by metroplex:

Ford has a TSB where you ground the heater core to eliminate electrolysis in the core.

Any ideas?

I've heard that grounding the core and radiator speed up the electrolysis process.


After reading your original post again, I have to reconsider my advice. If there is a TSB, then somebody probably figured out that the heater core is a cathode relative to the rest of the system. This means that grounding the heater core would force any corrosion to be in the other components of the system that can "afford" to corrode, overriding any galvanic reaction that would happen locally in the heater core itself (for instance, if brazing was used to weld the copper, the copper and the brazing could have their own galvanic cell. If there is a larger mass of metal which is significantly more anodic than one of the two nearby metals, they will stop reacting locally and will concentrate on the larger reaction.)

If you know there is a TSB for your car, I recommend you definitely add the ground connection.

[ February 22, 2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
On the topic you can consider both water heaters and salt water boats. Both use a "sacrificial anode" that is grounded to the overall boat/heater. Instead of the dissimilar metals of the system (i.e. plates vs. fasteners and welds) having a galvanic reaction between themselves, the anode corrodes and the rest of the components don't. Until the sacrificial anode is used up, then watch out!

[ February 22, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
I'll post the TSB here:

ISSUE:
Some vehicles may exhibit (repeat) heater core leaks. This may be caused by a chemical reaction called electrolysis. Electrolysis involves an ion exchange between the heater core and engine coolant which can result in a breakdown of the heater core material. This is similar to the operation of a battery.

ACTION:
Check for electrolysis on any vehicle with a heater core failure. If electrolysis is verified, flush the coolant and follow additional steps as required. Refer to the following Service Procedure for details.

SERVICE PROCEDURE
Electrolysis Inspection
If there is a condition of a heater core leaking or repeat heater core leak, check for electrolysis using the following procedure:

To check for electrolysis use a DVOM set on DC volts. Place the positive probe of the meter in the engine coolant and the negative probe on the negative battery post.
Adjust engine throttle to 2000 RPM to properly get coolant flow and true electrolysis voltages.
If more than .4V is recorded, flush the coolant and recheck (follow guidelines in TSB 98-23-16 for Cougar). See Coolant Fill Procedure below to remove trapped air on 4.6/5.4/6.8L modular engines.
NOTE: EXPORT MARKETS, BE SURE THE WATER IS DESALINATED.


If there is still excessive voltage present in the coolant, check the engine to body/battery grounds. Also, verify proper grounding of any aftermarket electrical/electronic equipment which has been installed into the vehicle. Improperly grounded electrical devices can cause electrolysis to occur.
If the condition is still present after the grounds have been checked, it may be necessary to add extra grounds to the heater core and engine. A hose clamp can be used to secure a 16 AWG stranded copper wire to the heater core inlet tube. The other end should be secured to an EXISTING FASTENER on the body sheet metal. Extra grounds to the engine should be attached between EXISTING FASTENERS on the engine and body sheet metal. Verify continuity of any added grounds to the negative battery terminal.
If the condition is still present, add a restrictor (part F1UZ-18D406-A) on the inlet hose with the arrow facing the direction of coolant flow (toward heater core). Cut the line and install with 2 hose clamps. It is important that the restrictor be installed in the right direction of flow and as close to the engine block as possible (not near the heater core itself).
Coolant Fill Procedure
At times, in order to completely remove any trapped air in the cooling system of vehicles equipped with 4.6/5.4/6.8L modular engines, it may be necessary to use the following procedure:

Disconnect the heater hose at the right front or rear of the engine.
Remove the thermostat and housing.
Using the thermostat opening, carefully fill the engine with the proper clean coolant mixture until observed at the engine side heater hose connection.
Reconnect the heater hose and reinstall the thermostat and housing.
Fill the degas bottle to the coolant fill level mark.
Run the engine until it reaches normal operating temperatures.
Select max heat and max blower speed on the climate system.
NOTE: IF THE HEAT OUTPUT IS INSUFFICIENT, OR THE ENGINE DOES NOT REACH NORMAL OPERATING TEMPERATURES, VERIFY PROPER THERMOSTAT OPERATION AND REPEAT PROCEDURE IF REQUIRED.
 
So what should I do?

Cut the grounds to the radiator (I added them myself) and heater core?

Add more grounds to the engine block?

Could i make my own sacrificial anodes?
 
Well the whole thing is complicated
frown.gif


But it boils down to this:

(1) Slow down the reaction by preventing your coolant from becoming an electrolyte.

(2) Compare metals before grounding. For the component more sensitive to corrosion, make sure it is more cathodic on the galvanic series (see page 10 of earlier document) than the rest of the system before grounding it. Since your block is the largest part of the system and is always grounded, that's probably what will drive any reaction.

(3) Look for a high quality replacement heater core (when necessary) that is manufactured with good materials and practices, plus is close in galvanic series to the engine (such as aluminum). This is why many import cars don't have corroding heater cores, they are made of aluminum and they are not fabricated with dissimilar materials.

The whole voltage measurement thing just proves that there are significantly dissimlar metals in that car's cooling system.

I would not suggest trying to make your own sacrificial anode. There could be negative effects introducing a different material into the system.

[ February 22, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
S2000: I asked another person on another UBB who works on fleet trucks for a living and this was his response:

Using the logic of the poster you quoted (I quoted you)

quote:

Let's say the engine is made of iron, the radiator out of aluminum, and the heater core out of copper, all connected together through the coolant, but not with ground. ....

marine vessels would self destruct due to enabled dissimilar metals corrosion BECAUSE they employ good grounding. Of note, most mafgrs of marine components ASSUME a salt water environment which is much more conductive than a non-saline environment (don't know how it compares to typical EG mixes however).

It also flies in the face of nearly every HD truck manufacturer's practice of inter-grounding EVERYTHING, Radiators, coolers, engines, frames, cabs, cores, axels.....everything. If this person is correct, we would see some very serious problems, which we definately do not.


end response

What do you make of this? I'm very confused in this subject but you sound like you're very familiar with this field. Any ideas?
 
In marine issues, ships use a floating ground in all of their electrical connections, which means they must run a ground wire in the circut to complete the circut and is not normally attached to the box or ships hull. This is common with all 3phase, single phase and dc circuts.

Ships like most boats also use a zinc anode to attract the electrolisis that a hull would normall incur being in the water. On small water crafts such as out board motors, many will make the mistake of painting over the zinc anode, thus causing it to corrode and eat the metal surface.
Notice in this pic, the (silver colored)zinc anode used just above the prop.
 -


To answer your question, the purpose for grounding the radiator and oil cooler makes little sense because in an automotive engine system, the frame unlike in marine applications, is also the dc ground tied directly to the battery. Also the rectifiers built into most alternators now, which takes the ac developed from the alternator and passes it through as a DC voltage which is tied directly to the dc battery which acts like a filter cap that keeps the dc clean from any ac ripple developed by the alternator which rides on top of the DC vcc.
There is a small cap mounted on the outside of the alternator that provides ac filtering which is tied to the same ground.

Also In marine applications,electrolysis is a common form of corrosion in marine environments. It occurs when two (or more) dissimilar metals are brought into electrical contact under water. One of the metals becomes the anode and corrodes faster than it would all by itself, while the other becomes the cathode and corrodes slower than it would alone. Either (or both) metals in the couple may or may not corrode by itself (themselves) in seawater. When contact with a dissimilar metal is made, however, the self-corrosion rates will change: corrosion of the anode will accelerate; corrosion of the cathode will decelerate or even stop.

So to ground radiators and such should not make a bit of difference as for electrolisys potential between those metals due to grounding, and since they are not normally touching dissimular metals, I see no way for this to make or break electrolisys any different as a circut.

As ED P. pointed out, the best way to eliminate any concerns is to watch the acidity levels or make a point to flush and change the antifreeze at recommended intervals therefore there is no electricly charged chemical re action due to the breakdown of the glycol. BTW, In all my shrimp boat applications, they too have radiators on their engines and they too have to watch for acidity like on diesel trucks, which carries a common ground to their engines and frames. Both can experience the same exact problem with leaking liners in their engines due to electrolysis. This is EXACTLY WHY you SHOULD BE USING a product such as the clean and cool.

One other thing,... read in your owners manual or check with dealer on any diesel engine, if you ARE NOT using some form of additive in your coolant, IT CAN VOID NEW ENGINE WARR if a liner leaks!!!.

Hope that helps.

[ February 22, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
quote:

To answer your question, the purpose for grounding the radiator and oil cooler makes little sense because in an automotive engine system, the frame unlike in marine applications, is also the dc ground tied directly to the battery. Also the rectifiers built into most alternators now, which takes the ac developed from the alternator and passes it through as a DC voltage which is tied directly to the dc battery which acts like a filter cap that keeps the dc clean from any ac ripple developed by the alternator which rides on top of the DC vcc.
There is a small cap mounted on the outside of the alternator that provides ac filtering which is tied to the same ground.

Yes I know. I just built a SMPS that turns 12-14V DC into +/- 40V DC for a car amp.

But the radiator and heater core aren't grounded - they're both isolated from the body (DC ground), and the fluid (anti-freeze + water) carries stray voltages inside the containers.

I'm still trying to figure out the best method of prolonging the life of the radiator and heater core.
 
well, since you understand the basic principles of switch mode p/s's, then you obviously understand that the current produced by this is not the same as in a battery. These stray vcc's are due to the acidity and would only look to complete the circuit but only if it was using the same ground could it. In effect, by them not being on the frame ground, it could not attract and act like a ground. kinda like hanging the positive wire in the air, until the ciruit is made, no current can pass.Also, we are talking about two separate sources here, produced by different means. Consider this, if two separate p/s's hot were attached together, each providing its own vcc, but only attach the ground from the one p/s, you'd only have current flow from the one. the other p/s would not affect the ciruit since it only has one side of it's primary ciruit connected.

The acidity is only attracted and reacting to the dissimular metals not the current path of voltage ground, because if that was the case, the whole engine would be covered in electrolysis in a diesel where as it only affects the liners.

[ February 22, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
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