Grounding radiator and heater core

[TheLoneRanger]

I've learned a lot about galvanic corrosion here. Thanks all.

Metroplex, are you sure the radiator isn't grounded? Most are bolted to the vehicle frame. Unlike heater cores, which are isolated in rubber or plastic mounts. If it were mine, I would ground the heater core as stated in the TSB.....

This effectively gives you "impressed current" corrosion protection. corrosion protection

[ February 22, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: TheLoneRanger ]

 

[S2000driver]

metroplex,

If you have a digital voltmeter, you can hook one wire up to a metal surface of the heater core and the other wire to ground. If it is already grounded, you should read the same steady 0 voltage that shows up when you touch the probes together.

If you get a reasonably steady non-zero voltage reading, the core isn't grounded and you probably have potential for significant galvanic reaction when a ground is connected. Be sure to write down the reading, whether it was + or - on the screen, and which wire was hooked where. A professional can tell you whether hooking up a ground would cause corrosion in the engine (sacrificial, good) or in the heater core (bad).

If you get an unsteady voltage reading (jumps way up and down), you still aren't grounded, but there is no indication there is a galvanic difference between the core and the rest of the cooling system. Either your coolant is in good shape or the core is a similar metal to the engine block.

 

[S2000driver]

quote:

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Originally posted by metroplex:
How would it be completing a circuit?

The engine is grounded, and the body is grounded.
There's no +12V DC involved (not directly at least). so wouldn't grounding the heater core simply be just that rather than completing a circuit?

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The "galvanic cell" has NOTHING to do with your 12V battery.

I did the search I suggested you do and found this document. I think it explains it rather well. You will need adobe acrobat reader to read it.

http://ecal-admin.mme.tcd.ie/MSEInteractive/chap16-c.pdf

The explanation starts around page 5. When you ground a component, you complete the circuit that is shown above the apparatus.

 

[metroplex]

Guys, if I can build a SMPS from scratch don't you think I'd have a DMM

I tested for continuity between the heater core and radiator and ground.

On the 2003 Ford E-250, 2000 Ford Crown Victoria, and 1981 Ford T-bird, all three radiators were isolated and all three heater cores were isolated.

The radiators on the 00 and 03 use plastic tops and bottoms which bolt onto the frame. The 81 radiator is all brass/copper but its still isolated.

Right now, the E-250 and Crown Vic both have 10AWG ground "straps" tied to the core inlet and radiator body (the metal part).
The T-bird only has the radiator grounded. I'm trying to fit a ground wire onto the heater core.

Bob: I see where you're going with this - Ford is probably issuing the TSB only as a precaution because quite possibly in some cases the grounding for the engine isn't up to par due to thin ground straps so they're just covering their mistakes. So in effect grounding the containers wouldn't affect electrolysis at all?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

That's correct as one is an electrical circuit(battery/alternator a/c to d/c) and the other is a chemical reaction to dissimilar metals, not re active to the ground side of the battery circuit which is only half of the battery. The positive side would have to be in there somewhere to create the complete circuit. They are two separate systems if you think about it. just like hooking two electrolitic caps up, hook both grounds together, and only attach one of the caps + side to the circuit. The other cap will not affect that circuit until you attach its + side. Most it would do is pickup stray RF in a power circuit, which would filter to ground anyway if it was to happen.

So hooking up grounds to that, I don't see how that is going to affect them. Another point, many of the newer vehicles have plastic tanks, unlike older were metal. They are not grounded, also, by that, the electric fan, has to have a ground brought to it through the harness. At best, maybe they're for static discharge purposes? I don't see where it's maknig the difference myself.

[ February 23, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[jjbula]

quote:

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Originally posted by ED P.:
What happens is that the glycol and additives will breakdown due to heat, which in turn becomes acidic, which creates an electricly charged solution which usually is attracted to the metals. In diesel engines for example, the liners normally become the first thing to spring a leak due to electrolsis, unlike a gas engine, it's usually the radiator.

The best ways to eliminate this is to watch the acidity levels of the fluid by using a PH strip, get from some swimming pool chemical supply, walmart may also carry it., check for neutral balance of 7. If too much acidity, you can either treat it or better yet, flush and change the fluid.

I use the schaeffers Clean and Cool myself which maintains and neutralizes the acids as well it breaks the ionic water tension so that it makes the water wetter giving it a better cooling effectivness . Redline appears to have a water wetter which is simular to the Clean and Cool which breaks the ionic tension but not sure if it neutralizes acids like schaeffers does. I suspect it also will cost more as most of their products do compared to schaeffers.

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Ed P.,

I'm really interested in this schaeffer product, but how do I test for all 3 coolant properties? Does schaeffer or somebody else sell test kits?


From www.schaefferoil.com/data/258.htm

Test for pH
pH should be between 9.0-10.5

If below 9.0, remove all of the coolant and dispose of properly. Flush and replace with a new 50/50 antifreeze/water solution.

If above 10.5, remove some coolant and replace with a 50/50 antifreeze/water solution.



Test for Nitrate Level
Nitrate level should be 300-1200ppm

If above 1200ppm, remove some coolant and add a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze/water.

If below 300ppm, add 1 pint of Clean & Cool to each 8 gallons of cooling system capacity.



Test for Molybdate Level
Molybdate level should be 400-2000ppm

If below 400ppm, add 1 pint of Clean & Cool to each 8 gallons of cooling system capacity. (If Clean & Cool has already been added to raise the nitrate levels DO NOT add any additional Clean & Cool.)

If above 2000ppm, remove some coolant and add a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze/water then recheck both the nitrate and molybdate levels.

[ February 23, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

 

[metroplex]

Redline Water Wetter:

quote:

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CORROSION PROTECTION
Modern automotive engines now use aluminum for heads, radiators, water pump housings, and nearly all hose fittings. These engines require significantly greater corrosion protection than their cast iron counterparts of the past. Aluminum is such an electroactive metal that it requires an impenetrable corrosion inhibitor film to prevent rapid corrosion. Acid neutralization capability is very important. Coolant which has been left in a cooling system for several years has probably become acidic from the oxidation of the glycol to acids. Also, keeping the glycol concentration in the cooling system below 50% will help stability.

Red Line also provides excellent protection from cavitation erosion in the water pump and cylinder head. Localized boiling in the cylinder head forms vapor bubbles which collapse when they come in contact with cooler liquids. This collapse creates tremendous shock waves which removes the inhibitor film from the aluminum surface and can cause catastrophic erosion of the aluminum if the inhibitor does not reform the film quickly. Another problem created by cavitation erosion is the deposition of the removed aluminum as a salt with poor heat transfer properties in the lower temperature radiator tubes. Red Line prevents this corrosion through effective film formation and smaller vapor bubble formation, which has a less violent collapse. Foam control is equally important since entrained air will cause cavitation erosion due to the collapse of foam bubbles. Red Line provides excellent control of foam with water alone and glycol solutions.

Most coolants additives on the market provide only protection for iron and perhaps moderate protection for aluminum. The milky soluble oil types can actually impede heat transfer by wetting the metal surface with oil and this oil can swell and soften rubber coolant hoses. Table 3 shows the many tests which the Red Line formula will satisfy and how it compares to a standard antifreeze.

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[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Red line Sounds Identical to our Cleen and Cool.

 

[metroplex]

Just out of curiosity how much does a pint of CLean and Cool cost?

[ February 24, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I don't know what a bottle would cost as I buy everything in wholesale quanities directly from schaeffers in case lots. Call Tim (800) 737-1747
and they could tell you.

 

[metroplex]

Bob, I noticed that if I shook a bottle of 50/50 water/anti-freeze it would foam very quickly.

If you poured some Clean and Cool into the bottle, would this foam still occur?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

You know, I've never tried that, but will and get back with you.

As for the tech sheet, it is suppose to.

• Prevention of the formation of rust, scale and iron corrosion deposits by the formation of a monomolecular film on all metal surfaces including aluminum.
• Removal of existing rust, scale and iron corrosion deposits, while the engine is in operation.
• Reduces the potential for overheating
• Prevention of galvanic corrosion caused by electolysis.
• Inhibition of corrosion to copper and its alloys due to the presence of a tolytriazole corrosion inhibitor.
• Lubrication of water pumps and seals.
• Prevention of the formation of green go.
• Elimination of coolant foaming by reducing the surface tension of the coolant. This reduces the potential for cavitation.
• Neutralization of harmful acids that result as antifreeze chemically breaks down.
• Prevention of the erosion of soft metals.
• Improved efficiency and extended engine life.
• Will not affect gaskets and hoses.
• Non-toxic and non-corrosive in use concentration.
• Will not support bacterial growth due to its low nitrate formulation.
• Compatible with all types of antifreezes including the new extended life antifreezes

 

[windeye]

Originally Posted By: metroplex
Should I ground the radiator and heater core?

On two of my Fords, both the heater core and radiator sprung leaks eventually.

Ford has a TSB where you ground the heater core to eliminate electrolysis in the core.

Any ideas?

I've heard that grounding the core and radiator speed up the electrolysis process.


Ford has another TSB five years later (in 2006, original one in 2001), which says bluntly: Do NOT ground the heater core. I posted yesterday, but my post disappears overnight. (ghost?) Here's the PDF of the TSB.

http://www.stangnet.com/images/stories/docs/s197_TSBs/06-21-19.pdf

If this site does not allow referencing other web sites, please just delete the link, and I am willing to send the TSB to whoever is interested. The initial TSB was mistaken in recommending add "extra" ground to heater core. Anyone who thinks otherwise should get his head checked.

 

[metroplex]

Old thread, but I do remember seeing Ford saying not to ground the heater core/radiator. However, in the October 2013 issue of Sport Rider, Royal Purple chimed in and said that if the radiator is not grounded, electrolysis will eat away the aluminum over time. Royal Purple also recommends using tap water or filtered drinking water because the minerals would inhibit corrosion versus using distilled water (which goes against many factory service manual recommendations).

I don't think there is a clear consensus on this because I grounded the heater core and radiator on my 2000 Crown Vic in 2000? or 2001? and I am still using the original radiator and heater core. I routinely hit 6200 RPM in the 4.6L 2V V8 engine and I changed the coolant every 5 years or so with the Prestone Extended Life stuff.

 

[JHZR2]

Interesting.

If the radiator is at a different potential than the "ground" potential that the battery and engine is at, there could be some electrochemistry.

However if it is grounded, there is the potential for stray currents to flow through a point, which might cause issues with it.

That's a tough call...