Originally Posted By: Panzerman
If they really interested in being efficient and stop watching so much TV and movies they would go back to the .357 magnum with 6 shots and better accuracy. This I need high capacity magazines is idiot logic for police. I saw a sheriff deputy in a Subway the other day he had a loaded Glock, then a two high capacity mags on his front belt and two.more standard mags on his back. Wanted to ask him if he was planning on some Delta Force stuff there.
6 shots, good placement, all they need and really all they should be trusted with.
Permit me to respectfully agree and disagree with your premise. Is the .357 Magnum, specifically the Remington or Federal 125gr JHP round an effective stopping cartridge? Yes, it is. I carried one on duty (with 12 rounds for spares) for nearly 20 years and never felt outgunned. But I also had a 12 gauge Remington 870 locked against the front seat, and an M16 in the trunk, so that 'feeling' was somewhat relative.
The 1970s had also brought a number of lawsuits against police agencies that issued or permitted .357 Magnum revolvers, loaded with .357 Magnum ammunition, but had officers qualify with .38 Special wadcutter loads. Policy changes were wide sweeping, and shooting a 96 round course back then with 125 grain JHP Magnum loads was no picnic. Followup shots were a lot easier said than done at distances over 3 to 7 yards. It was also beating K frame revolvers up pretty bad, which prompted S&W and Ruger to bring out the "L" frame 586, 686, and GP100. So for the same capacity, we've added 6-8 more ounces of weight to tote around.
The infamous 1986 Miami 'shootout' wasn't so much about handgun stopping power (the rounds that finally stopped Matix and Platt (bad guys) were actually the .38 Special 158 +P LSWHP) but about bringing a handgun to a rifle fight, and a fight that was in VERY tight quarters with what I would call 'minute of pucker' ranging - think 145 rounds in under 5 minutes was the tally IIRC. It is almost impossible to train enough for a situation like that.
Part of what prompted the move to more powerful auto-loaders was the perception that while Platt (bad guy) had lost a lot of blood from the cross shot of the 9m/m, it didn't go deep enough to disrupt the blood pump. Also, the revolver armed agents were (obviously) under serious pressure to reload, and revolvers ain't that fast on the reload even with speed loaders (especially when you're dropping your gun in the process). Nothing out of any handguns were providing that instant incapacitation. At that time, Agents could carry .357 Magnum revolvers of their own, but had to get permission from their SAIC to carry the Magnum rounds - and to qualify with those rounds. Most who had .357 revolvers carried the standard 158Gr LSWCHP +P load.
The 9m/m rounds of today are a vast leap ahead than those in 1986. Propellants have improved giving higher velocity at standard or +P pressures, and bullet design has vastly improved. Firearms training courses have also changed radically, with an emphasis on multiple assailants, partial obstructions, etc, etc. Caveat that a good range score doesn't automatically mean a good score on the street. There's no amount of adrenaline you can dump on a firing range that even approaches a lethal confrontation on the street. You will, however, default to your lowest level of training.
I got to transition in the mid 1990s to the Glock 9m/m. The standard load that I'm still using is the Federal 9BLPE 115gr +P+. Is it a wonder bullet ? Nope, none of 'em are, but it's far easier to control for followup shots than my S&W K and L frame .357 Magnums were. The Federal 9 BPLE has earned its salt from a lot of use on the street.
Bad guys have also advanced into things like 'ghost' and stolen pistols, semi auto rifles, stolen, smuggled and illegally modified automatic weapons. They also travel in packs, as gangs are far more prevalent and than 30-40 years ago. As the Feds took the Mafia apart, the vacuum left was filled in by street gangs who had absolutely NO rules of engagement. At least the Mafia had 'rules' on who you could and couldn't hit, and under what parameters. For every gang banger that you do see, bet your behind there are three you don't immediately see - which you had better pick up on fast. The bad guys know that when they see the cop with the Glock (or SIG or Beretta or whatever) that he won't need to stop at 6, and chances are he'll have at least 50 rounds on him instead of 18. Two cops, double it, etc.
I still have my .357 revolvers, still shoot 'em from time to time, and I wouldn't trade 'em for the world. But I am far more comfortable and confident in my shooting ability with my Glocks, SIGs, Berettas and 1911s than with anything else that can be concealed under a windbreaker or vest. 6 shots and good shot placement works well on the range, not so much when rounds are incoming your way.
