Good Read On The 9 MM vs. .40 S&W

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Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
My money would be on a trained guy with a .357 magnum over a gang bangers with a high cap 9. You tend to be more focused on accuracy when you know you only have six


So with your whole, "less is more" theory, perhaps they should carry single shot Contenders in chest rigs. Then they would really be accurate. Let's return to the whole, "One Shot - One Kill", mantra that has worked so well for the American Sniper and Matthew Quigley.


I think you are twisting his words to suit your agenda (more spray and pray is better than shot accuracy.).
What he says is accurate. Its a mindset that is always reinforced in good training. And again he didn't say that is what he actually does or that everyone should do it.
 
Originally Posted By: Al
I think you are twisting his words to suit your agenda (more spray and pray is better than shot accuracy.)


Show me one single law enforcement agency in this country that teaches, "spray and pray"? This is all a big Internet fallacy. Every bit as much as believing that any guy who can deliver accurate fire on a range, will be able to automatically do so under heavy fire in a combat situation. Let alone be better off trying to do it with a 6 shot revolver. All he is doing is doubling down on his own concocted B.S.
 
No reason in getting wound up about the whole 9mm vs. .40 thing. Handguns are a compromise. Cops do a lot more things on a daily basis, than pull some iron. The handguns they a carry, in addition to being a compromise by being a handgun (as opposed to a long gun), are a compromise for liability, for cost, for political correctness, for accessibility and probably a half a dozen more compromises.

All we can do when we are in a bad sit, is hope we do the right thing. Good training and equipment go a long way, but circumstances and mindset usually dictate what happens.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
I think you are twisting his words to suit your agenda (more spray and pray is better than shot accuracy.)


Show me one single law enforcement agency in this country that teaches, "spray and pray"? This is all a big Internet fallacy. Every bit as much as believing that any guy who can deliver accurate fire on a range, will be able to automatically do so under heavy fire in a combat situation. Let alone be better off trying to do it with a 6 shot revolver. All he is doing is doubling down on his own concocted B.S.

When did I say Law enforcement teaches "spray and pray"?
I am glad you recognize shooting targets on thew range is different than engaging a threat in the real world. The overwhemling percentage of folks that carry are more of a threat with more rounds rather than fewer.
Maybe he is not doubling down. Maybe he is right and you are not?
 
Originally Posted By: Al
When did I say Law enforcement teaches "spray and pray"?


When did I? And what does the amount of ammunition available have to do with how it's shot? It makes zero sense to carry less ammo, based on the foolish logic that you are more likely to waste it, simply because you have more of it. And that is precisely the logic he is trying to imply.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
When did I say Law enforcement teaches "spray and pray"?


When did I? And what does the amount of ammunition available have to do with how it's shot? It makes zero sense to carry less ammo, based on the foolish logic that you are more likely to waste it, simply because you have more of it. And that is precisely the logic he is trying to imply.


You tied it to cops (again)
Quote:
Show me one single law enforcement agency in this country that teaches, "spray and pray"?


Again in the hands of the untrained citizen less ammo is better (and safer to others in the area.)

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
Maybe he is right and you are not?


If he was cops would still be carrying 6 shot wheel guns. He is not.... And they aren't.

Again you keep talking about cops. No one suggested they carry less ammo. You keep respondiong to things others have not said. I don't know why you can't get this straight.

Well Everyone on the board knows you need to have the last word. So go ahead. I'm done
beer3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Al
Again in the hands of the untrained citizen less ammo is better (and safer to others in the area.)


That is the most completely insane thing I have ever heard. And completely lacks any and all common sense. If you're so worried about shooting innocent bystanders , you should not be shooting at all. Regardless if you are a citizen or a cop. Do you even think before you type this kind of nonsense? There is not a single event where a cop or a citizen would be engaged to shoot, where having less ammunition on hand would be anything but a dangerous disadvantage. Or having to stop in order to fumble around ejecting empty cases and reloading after just 6 rounds. And spare me this "last word" nonsense. When you post nonsensical garbage, I'm going to respond to it.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
Again in the hands of the untrained citizen less ammo is better (and safer to others in the area.)


That is the most completely insane thing I have ever heard. And completely lacks any and all common sense. If you're so worried about shooting innocent bystanders , you should not be shooting at all. Regardless if you are a citizen or a cop. Do you even think before you type this kind of nonsense? There is not a single event where a cop or a citizen would be engaged to shoot, where having less ammunition on hand would be anything but a dangerous disadvantage. Or having to stop in order to fumble around ejecting empty cases and reloading after just 6 rounds. And spare me this "last word" nonsense. When you post nonsensical garbage, I'm going to respond to it.


I completely agree!

No one who has ever survived a real life and death gun fight has ever said "You know, I would have been better off with less ammunition today". To even think that someone might think or say that is, completely asinine.

As for revolvers themselves; there are many, many, reasons why any legitimate police, military or even security unit does not use them. Regardless of what your personal feelings are about them, service sized revolvers compared to a service size semi auto are heavier in general, especially front heavy, low ammunition capacity, long 10lb trigger pull, slow to reload and more expensive to manufacture, purchase and repair.

Stop the madness.
 
Originally Posted By: AMC
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
Again in the hands of the untrained citizen less ammo is better (and safer to others in the area.)


That is the most completely insane thing I have ever heard. And completely lacks any and all common sense. If you're so worried about shooting innocent bystanders , you should not be shooting at all. Regardless if you are a citizen or a cop. Do you even think before you type this kind of nonsense? There is not a single event where a cop or a citizen would be engaged to shoot, where having less ammunition on hand would be anything but a dangerous disadvantage. Or having to stop in order to fumble around ejecting empty cases and reloading after just 6 rounds. And spare me this "last word" nonsense. When you post nonsensical garbage, I'm going to respond to it.


I completely agree!

No one who has ever survived a real life and death gun fight has ever said "You know, I would have been better off with less ammunition today". To even think that someone might think or say that is, completely asinine.

As for revolvers themselves; there are many, many, reasons why any legitimate police, military or even security unit does not use them. Regardless of what your personal feelings are about them, service sized revolvers compared to a service size semi auto are heavier in general, especially front heavy, low ammunition capacity, long 10lb trigger pull, slow to reload and more expensive to manufacture, purchase and repair.

Stop the madness.


All true. While I know there are some people who still insist on carrying revolvers, please don't be foolish enough to tell me that it's because they have the "advantage" of carrying less ammunition. And even more madness is this silly notion that cops some how need more ammunition than citizens do. When you have a bad guy shooting at you, in an attempt to end your life, I'm not seeing what your occupation has to do with regulating the amount of ammunition required in your weapon to stop the fight? That's just lunacy.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: AMC
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Al
Again in the hands of the untrained citizen less ammo is better (and safer to others in the area.)


That is the most completely insane thing I have ever heard. And completely lacks any and all common sense. If you're so worried about shooting innocent bystanders , you should not be shooting at all. Regardless if you are a citizen or a cop. Do you even think before you type this kind of nonsense? There is not a single event where a cop or a citizen would be engaged to shoot, where having less ammunition on hand would be anything but a dangerous disadvantage. Or having to stop in order to fumble around ejecting empty cases and reloading after just 6 rounds. And spare me this "last word" nonsense. When you post nonsensical garbage, I'm going to respond to it.


I completely agree!

No one who has ever survived a real life and death gun fight has ever said "You know, I would have been better off with less ammunition today". To even think that someone might think or say that is, completely asinine.

As for revolvers themselves; there are many, many, reasons why any legitimate police, military or even security unit does not use them. Regardless of what your personal feelings are about them, service sized revolvers compared to a service size semi auto are heavier in general, especially front heavy, low ammunition capacity, long 10lb trigger pull, slow to reload and more expensive to manufacture, purchase and repair.

Stop the madness.


All true. While I know there are some people who still insist on carrying revolvers, please don't be foolish enough to tell me that it's because they have the "advantage" of carrying less ammunition. And even more madness is this silly notion that cops some how need more ammunition than citizens do. When you have a bad guy shooting at you, in an attempt to end your life, I'm not seeing what your occupation has to do with regulating the amount of ammunition required in your weapon to stop the fight? That's just lunacy.


It's a cops job to look for trouble and end it and to protect and serve, not a civilians. I'll buy your argument about pistols vs revolvers but you are living in a fantasy world if you believe you need 36 rounds on you for the big firefight you will never be in.
 
Originally Posted By: Toros
It's a cops job to look for trouble and end it and to protect and serve, not a civilians. I'll buy your argument about pistols vs revolvers but you are living in a fantasy world if you believe you need 36 rounds on you for the big firefight you will never be in.


Cops don't, "look for trouble". They are on the street 8 hours a day. Trouble is more prone to find them, simply based on the amount of time they are exposed to it. And the fact many of them are forced to patrol in less than safe, secure neighborhoods. In spite of that most cops go their entire career without ever having to fire their weapon in the line of duty. Any firefight has the potential to become deadly in seconds. And it doesn't matter in the least if it's a cop or a citizen who happens to get into it when it happens. The amount of ammunition a person might or might not "need", is immaterial. Why carry less? What purpose would that serve, other than to place you at a deadly disadvantage?

Many of today's service pistols easily have capacities exceeding 15 rounds. So a magazine in the weapon, along with 2 extra is very easy to carry, and takes mere seconds to change out. That gives the civilian or cop a minimum of 45 rounds at their disposal. And while you are probably correct that neither the cop or civilian may not ever need that much ammunition. There is no inconvenience to either of them to carry it. Any more than it's an inconvenience to drive around on a full tank, instead of one that is almost empty.
 
9mm vs. .45ACP ? ... What do the experts say between these two rounds using modern hollow point loads ? ... For .45ACP modern loads between 185gr. to 230 gr. and 9mm from 115gr. to 147gr. :
 
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
9mm vs. .45ACP ? ... What do the experts say between these two rounds using modern hollow point loads ? ... For .45ACP modern loads between 185gr. to 230 gr. and 9mm from 115gr. to 147gr. :


I will take the 45 every day 9MM expand but .45's don't shrink!
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Toros
It's a cops job to look for trouble and end it and to protect and serve, not a civilians. I'll buy your argument about pistols vs revolvers but you are living in a fantasy world if you believe you need 36 rounds on you for the big firefight you will never be in.


Cops don't, "look for trouble". They are on the street 8 hours a day. Trouble is more prone to find them, simply based on the amount of time they are exposed to it. And the fact many of them are forced to patrol in less than safe, secure neighborhoods. In spite of that most cops go their entire career without ever having to fire their weapon in the line of duty. Any firefight has the potential to become deadly in seconds. And it doesn't matter in the least if it's a cop or a citizen who happens to get into it when it happens. The amount of ammunition a person might or might not "need", is immaterial. Why carry less? What purpose would that serve, other than to place you at a deadly disadvantage?

Many of today's service pistols easily have capacities exceeding 15 rounds. So a magazine in the weapon, along with 2 extra is very easy to carry, and takes mere seconds to change out. That gives the civilian or cop a minimum of 45 rounds at their disposal. And while you are probably correct that neither the cop or civilian may not ever need that much ammunition. There is no inconvenience to either of them to carry it. Any more than it's an inconvenience to drive around on a full tank, instead of one that is almost empty.


When you run into that once in a life time anomaly life's a [censored] when you run out of ammo!
 
Modern 9mm ammo is good stuff. It used to be weak, and ball rounds were ineffective. More energy is better for the effectiveness of each round. More ammo is better for the effectiveness of the shooter. Too much recoil degrades shooter effectiveness. If the rounds miss the intended target, or follow up shots are impossible, that caliber is useless in the hands of that particular shooter. There's a multitude of factors that go into the weapon/caliber choice. Police departments, and some shooters, have to factor in the cost of ammo for training and carry, as well, and here, 9mm wins every time...

Personally, the weapon/caliber selection is informed by the competing needs of capacity and concealability while keeping ammo performance, shooter performance, and weapon familiarity in mind.

Bias towards concealed carry: I'm very happy with the performance and recoil of my wife's Walther CCP = 8 rounds of 9mm with a soft recoil from the gas-delay system.

Balance concealability and performance: My H&K USP Compact with 12+1 .40SW or my G19 with 15+1 9mm. I happen to like the 165gr Speer Gold Dot in .40 and I am very familiar with the H&K.

Max performance: My G20 with 15+1 of Buffalo Bore (full power loads) 10mm. Substantial increase in ME and effectiveness against large, or heavily clothed, threats. No 9mm works against bears and heavy winter clothing can degrade 9mm ammo performance to the point of being ineffective.

But the 10mm isn't for everyone. Not everyone can grip the full size Glock, and not everyone can shoot full power 10mm effectively. If shooting 10mm is too much, and a full size service pistol is appropriate, then my G17 is a good choice: 17+1 of good 9mm HP ammo would serve a shooter well.

Before you can say "caliber x is better than caliber y" you have to understand the training and ability of the shooter, the needs of the shooter, and the nature of the threat. Then, you balance all those factors, and choose the caliber best suited. Time was when the 9mm was a terrible choice, but the days of poorly performing ball ammo are gone, replaced by a whole range of good performing HP ammo in different calibers.

Maybe I should just throw in and say, ".38 Super beats them all!"

grin.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
9mm vs. .45ACP ? ... What do the experts say between these two rounds using modern hollow point loads ? ... For .45ACP modern loads between 185gr. to 230 gr. and 9mm from 115gr. to 147gr. :


45 will trump the 9mm in most categories, but not all.

The 9mm is still a better penetrating round. It will generally also perform better at distance in terms of expansion with JHP ammo as the 45 moves slowly and will fall below the expansion threshold of the bullet faster. The 45 also has more recoil in the same platform as well as it lacks capacity in similar platforms.

Remember that when the FBI first adopted the 1911 pistol, it did so in the 38 Super flavor, not the 45. That was due to the 45's mediocre penetration ability when it came to barriers.

If you can shoot a 45 well, can live with the reduced capacity, and are doing work up close and not planning to shoot through barriers, its a fine round. In some loadings like the Ranger T series, the 45 can expand to a full inch and meet FBI penetration specs. However there are 9mm loads that can pull of nearly 7/10ths of an inch and have the advantages I listed. Either round will likely serve you VERY well in the vast majority of self defense situations. I own and carry both.
 
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Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
9mm vs. .45ACP ? ... What do the experts say between these two rounds using modern hollow point loads ? ... For .45ACP modern loads between 185gr. to 230 gr. and 9mm from 115gr. to 147gr. :


I will take the 45 every day 9MM expand but .45's don't shrink!

The .45 does shrink... horizontally. That is where they got the .45 GAP.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
If they really interested in being efficient and stop watching so much TV and movies they would go back to the .357 magnum with 6 shots and better accuracy. This I need high capacity magazines is idiot logic for police. I saw a sheriff deputy in a Subway the other day he had a loaded Glock, then a two high capacity mags on his front belt and two.more standard mags on his back. Wanted to ask him if he was planning on some Delta Force stuff there.
6 shots, good placement, all they need and really all they should be trusted with.


Commenting on something you have absolutely zero knowledge on. Classic.
 
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