Good Read On The 9 MM vs. .40 S&W

[HouseTiger]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: HouseTiger
But I am far more comfortable and confident in my shooting ability with my Glocks, SIGs, Berettas and 1911s than with anything else that can be concealed under a windbreaker or vest. 6 shots and good shot placement works well on the range, not so much when rounds are incoming your way.

But one thing to realize. You are no longer a cop which means it is not your duty to do what a cop does. Now understand..you have been trained to engage multiple threats so what you do now is hard to change.



Ain't that the truth. 'Retired' means you were tired before, and today you're re-tired again. Old habits die hard, and that's accentuated when I see units fly by with lights on, or they have someone pulled over. I still keep my state certification as a firearms instructor active, and do training on the side from time to time, but that's the extent of it. At least I still get to see and play with some of the new toys coming along.

Now, for the most part, multiple threats consist of either four to five raccoons on my deck all looking for scraps, or three idiots in cars, talking on their cell phones, drinking coffee, trying to merge into the same lane (that I'm already in) at the same time. It's like a first person video game come alive.

 

[HouseTiger]

Originally Posted By: AMC


I completely agree!

No one who has ever survived a real life and death gun fight has ever said "You know, I would have been better off with less ammunition today". To even think that someone might think or say that is, completely asinine.

As for revolvers themselves; there are many, many, reasons why any legitimate police, military or even security unit does not use them. Regardless of what your personal feelings are about them, service sized revolvers compared to a service size semi auto are heavier in general, especially front heavy, low ammunition capacity, long 10lb trigger pull, slow to reload and more expensive to manufacture, purchase and repair.

Stop the madness.



When the soft brown gooey stuff hits the fast rotating air propulsion device, there is no such thing as 'too much ammo'.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Marco620
Some 9mm has more penetration than would be necessary.Like +P+ 9mm in Glock.


When you push rounds to higher velocities, they expand to larger diameters, which DECREASES penetration. So your average +P+ 9MM round from a Glock would have LESS penetration than a standard 9MM.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
And that's exactly the movie Hollywood mumbo jumbo they like you to believe.


There is nothing Hollywood about law enforcement. "mumbo jumbo" and all.

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Whenever police are doing a raid or whenever there is a scent of automatic weapons they wait till there is 20 or more, SWAT, Special agents, helicopters and sometimes even tanks.


Raid you say? A PLANNED event? Of course, cops are going to PLAN a favorable outcome, if they have time to do so. They are going to gather Intel, conduct surveillance, and go in with enough guns, armor, and tactics, to preserve life, and hopefully everyone goes home at the end of the shift, instead of burying Sgt Family-guy and handing his wife a folded flag at his funeral.

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
No cop is going to take on no felons or gangs by himself.


I wasn't aware that bad guys will wait for the cops to retreat or call in sufficient backup, and allow themselves to be arrested, 100% of the time. I haven't seen countless videos in the academy of officers outnumbered, outgunned, and killed or injured. Must be "mumbo jumbo" Hollywood productions.

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
That said I would still prefer to have a .357 magnum revolver over a 9 mm or .40 auto.


You'd rather have a low capacity weapon, with slow reloads, and perhaps 18 rounds total on your person, than a Glock 17 with 18 rounds in the gun, and two spare 17 round mags for 52 rounds on your person? The badguys are armed with full capacity semi-autos these days. And rifles. But you'd be OK going up against that firepower with a 6 shooter. Ok.

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
The lines that have become blurred that our police should be militarized is where this all starts. 9 mm was developed by the Germans for the military in it was light, ammo could be carried in large amounts and it gave a method of dumping alot of rounds in close quarters, none which law enforcement should be practicing but they like the para military effect which they dub " Tactical".

Your opinions are misinformed, based on apparent bad info. Six shooters are not an OK general issue sidearm for law enforcement, in 2017. You are wrong.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I would still be more confident in a 6 shot .357 magnum.
I see so many actual shootings were they literally dump thier pistols thinking more is better. My money would be on a trained guy with a .357 magnum over a gang bangers with a high cap 9. You tend to be more focused on accuracy when you know you only have six and that should be a issue with police shooting rounds in public, not so much a issue of bad guys, I know.


Everything goes out the window when rounds are incoming. Most folks dont care about "shot placement". They want to get rounds down range as quick as possible. Nothing else matters.

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
It would lead to better training and get away with spray and pray tactics most police have.


And therein lies the rub. Police training. I can categorically, with authority, say that a vast majority of cops are under-trained. Many well under-trained. Many shouldn't even be there. It would take billions and billions of dollars, the latest simulators, weeks of skill building and training sessions, and a two week class, annually, to get most cops up to snuff. There is NO money for that. They do bare minimum training, and do the best with what they have.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
.357 with 158 Gr bullets penetrate cars very well. 9mm with 115 Gr. and 124 Gr. not so much!


Wrong to the 9th degree. Ive "actually" shot up a ton of cars with every service caliber there is. Your info is factually inaccurate, at a minimum.

9MM bonded ammo that most police are using will easily punch holes in cars. 45ACP, not so much. 357 magnum and 357 Sig, like a hot knife through butter.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
It would lead to better training and get away with spray and pray tactics most police have.


You might consider better educating yourself about modern law enforcement tactical firearms training before making such statements, it could help your credibility when talking about guns and police.


What credibility?

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Toros
It's a cops job to look for trouble and end it and to protect and serve, not a civilians. I'll buy your argument about pistols vs revolvers but you are living in a fantasy world if you believe you need 36 rounds on you for the big firefight you will never be in.


Your right. 36 rounds was so 1995. I carry 46 rounds.

Originally Posted By: Toros
for the big firefight you will never be in.


You wear your seat-belt? Expecting to crash today are you? You have a fire extinguisher in your house? Expecting your kitchen to catch on fire today, are you?

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
9mm vs. .45ACP ? ... What do the experts say between these two rounds using modern hollow point loads ? ... For .45ACP modern loads between 185gr. to 230 gr. and 9mm from 115gr. to 147gr. :


I will take the 9MM everyday.

 

[judsonj]

They say you should refrain from talking about politics or religion if you want to avoid arguments, I think they should add caliber choice to that list.

 

[CT8]

I'm selling all my 1911's that I have had starting from my dads till now and the 40s and 38 specials and have the taxpayers buy me the ultimate 9mms

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: CT8
I'm selling all my 1911's that I have had starting from my dads till now and the 40s and 38 specials and have the taxpayers buy me the ultimate 9mms

The ultimate 9mm?

The .38 Super!

 

[HouseTiger]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

And therein lies the rub. Police training. I can categorically, with authority, say that a vast majority of cops are under-trained. Many well under-trained. Many shouldn't even be there. It would take billions and billions of dollars, the latest simulators, weeks of skill building and training sessions, and a two week class, annually, to get most cops up to snuff. There is NO money for that. They do bare minimum training, and do the best with what they have.


I will, unfortunately, have to agree with you. The most effective weapon a person has is what is between their ears. Unfortunately,in too many cases, that weapon is not honed to its best capacity. In service training requirements are steadily - albeit slowly - increasing nationwide. In the larger metro departments, and the federal agencies, there is the money for the simulator training, and real force-on-force exercises with specialized guns utilizing marking rounds, etc. The problem is getting administrators to allocate the funds appropriately.

The force-on-force training scenarios an agency could run are nearly limitless, but a good entry point would be the Newhall killings, and then the 86 Miami shootings and ramp it up from there. IMHO, the two week classes annually would be bare minimum - probably better one week classes every quarter followed by range qualification.

Where most of the lack of training comes in, at least what I have witnessed, was in rural and very small departments that had limited budgets that allowed them to just get by. In service training hours only get you so far when you're in a remote area where the deadliest thing you might run into is a moonshiner or timber rattler.

Your sidearm is the one piece of equipment you want to use the least; however, it's also the one piece of equipment on your belt that can change everyone's life - permanently.

As for the notion of the revolver still being relevant in law enforcement . . . using that logic, the U.S. military should still be issuing the M1903A3 Springfield rifle to front line troops.

Even the NYPD, effective January, 2018, now mandates that ALL previously grandfathered (from 1994) revolvers that are currently on duty are to be taken out of service as primary sidearms. You pick a Glock or a SIG - that's it.

 

[Toros]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Toros
It's a cops job to look for trouble and end it and to protect and serve, not a civilians. I'll buy your argument about pistols vs revolvers but you are living in a fantasy world if you believe you need 36 rounds on you for the big firefight you will never be in.


Cops don't, "look for trouble". They are on the street 8 hours a day. Trouble is more prone to find them, simply based on the amount of time they are exposed to it. And the fact many of them are forced to patrol in less than safe, secure neighborhoods. In spite of that most cops go their entire career without ever having to fire their weapon in the line of duty. Any firefight has the potential to become deadly in seconds. And it doesn't matter in the least if it's a cop or a citizen who happens to get into it when it happens. The amount of ammunition a person might or might not "need", is immaterial. Why carry less? What purpose would that serve, other than to place you at a deadly disadvantage?

Many of today's service pistols easily have capacities exceeding 15 rounds. So a magazine in the weapon, along with 2 extra is very easy to carry, and takes mere seconds to change out. That gives the civilian or cop a minimum of 45 rounds at their disposal. And while you are probably correct that neither the cop or civilian may not ever need that much ammunition. There is no inconvenience to either of them to carry it. Any more than it's an inconvenience to drive around on a full tank, instead of one that is almost empty.


I was a cop. So I don't need you to school me on what the job is or isn't . The comparison of civilians carrying the same quantity of ammunition because they might find themselves in the same situation(s)as cops is flat out stupid. Civilians don't respond to alarm calls, conduct traffic stops, respond to domestic disputes. .. the list goes on. Do you carry a backup gun too?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Toros
The comparison of civilians carrying the same quantity of ammunition because they might find themselves in the same situation(s)as cops is flat out stupid.


Your entire analysis lacks any common sense. What "same situation"? A shooting is a shooting. You cannot have too much ammunition if you become involved in one. Thinking you can is beyond stupid. It is completely idiotic.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: CT8
I'm selling all my 1911's that I have had starting from my dads till now and the 40s and 38 specials and have the taxpayers buy me the ultimate 9mms

The ultimate 9mm?

The .38 Super!

No argument from me

Unfortunately, thought, if you buy commercial hollowpoints like Silvertips(one of the few I know of on the market) you'll find that velocities are very close to similar 9mm ammo. So, in affect, you're shooting a 9mm in a larger case and a heavier/lower capacity gun. Fortunately, a lot of European ammo like Fiocchi is loaded to "real" Super velocities, but I don't think they make anything other than ball.

Of course, I can load it myself to "real" velocities(classic powders like Herco and Blue Dot still work great, as do some newer powders like CFE Pistol and BE-86) and there's a decent selection of .355 hollow points on the market(I think you can even get Gold Dots, although I haven't gone shopping for them as I mostly shoot cast and plated in my Super). I generally avoid hand loads in carry guns, though, and the latest high-tech bullets generally aren't available as separate components for reloaders.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: Toros
I was a cop.


That explains a lot about the attitude you've shown in this thread and in previous threads that have strayed in SD ammo discussions.

 

[Toros]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Toros
The comparison of civilians carrying the same quantity of ammunition because they might find themselves in the same situation(s)as cops is flat out stupid.


Your entire analysis lacks any common sense. What "same situation"? A shooting is a shooting. You cannot have too much ammunition if you become involved in one. Thinking you can is beyond stupid. It is completely idiotic.

Your entire post lacks sense. Cops by nature of their job have a higher probability of shooting or being shot. Is that so hard to comprehend? And a shooting isn't just a shooting. Cops are the ones that responded to the North Hollywood bank robbery...not civilians. But you know more than anyone else so I'm done .

 

[bigj_16]

The ultimate 9mm is the 9mm Winchester Magnum.
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt9mag.htm

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Toros
But you know more than anyone else so I'm done .

Wise move
I came to the same conclusion