Good Article On Glock

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
While we're at it, does anyone know of a 4006 kaboom? I don't doubt that it's happened(pretty much any gun can blow up, esp. if you do something stupid like double or triple charge a case with Bullseye or similar). Still, though, the seem to be few and far between.


Both the 1006 and 4006 S&W autos were pretty substantial guns, made from Stainless Steel. They were big, heavy auto pistols that could take a lot of abuse. The downside was like many S&W autos, they were a bit over engineered, and contained a lot of small parts that were prone to breakage. Especially compared to Glocks that were simple in comparison, and could be disassembled and put back together by most anyone. But they were good guns none the less. If I ever came across a new, to like new 1006 priced fairly, I'd grab it.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
While we're at it, does anyone know of a 4006 kaboom? I don't doubt that it's happened(pretty much any gun can blow up, esp. if you do something stupid like double or triple charge a case with Bullseye or similar). Still, though, the seem to be few and far between.


Both the 1006 and 4006 S&W autos were pretty substantial guns, made from Stainless Steel. They were big, heavy auto pistols that could take a lot of abuse. The downside was like many S&W autos, they were a bit over engineered, and contained a lot of small parts that were prone to breakage. Especially compared to Glocks that were simple in comparison, and could be disassembled and put back together by most anyone. But they were good guns none the less. If I ever came across a new, to like new 1006 priced fairly, I'd grab it.


I'm not a semi-auto guy, but as a gun collector there are a few that I'd like to own.

I do have my token 1911, although I opted for 38 Super rather than 45. I know many decry 1911s in anything other than 45, but the Super was a cartridge specifically developed for the 1911 platform so I feel like it has its place there

. Of course, the downside is that is that I seem to end up spending more time chasing my brass at the range than shooting.

I also have an S&W model 52. It's of course a horribly impractical gun for shooting at anything other than pieces of paper, but there's not a much better production gun for doing that. I've been told that guns which would not group to 2" at 50 yards would get sent back to be reworked until they could meet that standard.

There are two semi-autos on my wish list. One of those is a Browning Hi-Power. The other is a 1006. I'd really love to find a KSP-marked 1006, although the retired troopers I've talked to who still have theirs are understandably reluctant to part with them.

I seem to not run across a lot of 1006s for sale in any form, and they also seem to bring good prices regardless of condition.

 

[billt460]

I also have a Model 52, as well as a Model 41. Both are 2 of the finest semi's S&W ever produced. While I have a slew of 1911's, most are .45 ACP, and a couple are in 9 MM. Eventually I'll get one in .38 Super as well. The 1006 does have a bit of history to it. It's the gun the FBI went to after the Miami shootout. It basically says, "We got our butts shot off, and here is what we're going to do about it." But practically speaking, there are better 10 MM auto's to own. The whole FBI thing with them going to the 10 MM, was a bit of a joke. From what I've been reading recently, they're now going back to the 9 MM.

 

[bunnspecial]

I know that the Miami shoot-out was pretty much the catalyst for the wholesale shift of LEO from wheelguns to semi-autos. I keep mentioning the KSP because I know a bunch of retired officers who were active when the change-over happened, and that was when they went to 1006s and then 4006s. I know the 40 "short and weak" is effectively a downloaded 10mm, but you have to appreciate the fact that it packs somewhat more of a punch than a 9mm while usually only costing one round in a comparably sized gun.

I'm not a 40 fan, but a lot of my dislike comes from the fact that a lot of 40 shooters don't police their brass at the range

. A friend of mine who I go to the range with all the time always complains about the fact that if he's looking for his 45s, the 40s look like 9mms and if he's looking for 9mms he thinks the 40s are 45s. I don't like them because they fit almost perfectly in a 44 Mag case-I've ruined a couple of 44s because I didn't realize there was a piece of 40 brass down in it and I managed to jam the 40 case in when I resized the brass. That's just me, though

 

[billt460]

The .40 is dying. Many in law enforcement are switching back to the 9 MM. With all the modern, reliable, expanding ammunition that is available today, it's as good or better than the .40. Especially with the way they're downloading most everything these days in both .40 and 10 MM. Sales are dropping fast in most all .40 chambering's, while the 10 MM is seeing a new increase in sales. The problem with today's 10 MM loadings is many of them are not much hotter than the hot loaded .40's were when it came out back in the 90's. And everyone back then was jumping on the .40 bandwagon.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: billt460
The .40 is dying. Many in law enforcement are switching back to the 9 MM. With all the modern, reliable, expanding ammunition that is available today, it's as good or better than the .40. Especially with the way they're downloading most everything these days in both .40 and 10 MM. Sales are dropping fast in most all .40 chambering's, while the 10 MM is seeing a new increase in sales. The problem with today's 10 MM loadings is many of them are not much hotter than the hot loaded .40's were when it came out back in the 90's. And everyone back then was jumping on the .40 bandwagon.


Yeah...saddens me to see the weak 10mm loads, but as I've said in this forum before, I carry Buffalo Bore in my G20. At full pressure, the 10mm is a great round. In the FBI load, its just a .40 with a much bigger frame and fewer rounds of ammo...

I'm also a .40 fan, Speer Gold Dot 165g truth be told, and while the statistics show the effectiveness of the new 9mm loads, and while I own six 9mm hand guns (three of them Glocks), I still think that the .40 is an excellent choice. I'm fascinated by the articles on .40 recently, all the pundits who say: it beats up guns more than 9mm, but doesn't beat up the bad guys more.

So...what...Newton's third law? That get repealed in this case? The greater reaction in the frame has NO greater reaction on the other end?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
So...what...Newton's third law? That get repealed in this case? The greater reaction in the frame has NO greater reaction on the other end?


Depends on the ammo. On paper one would think, and could possibly prove, a .40 would tear up a frame faster than an identical gun in 9 MM. But the fact is 9 MM rounds have gotten hotter, (+P+), while most .40 rounds have gotten much weaker over the years. There is no such thing as a factory loaded .40+P. At least not one that SAAMI recognizes. Nor do they recognize 9 MM +P+ loadings. Besides, 95% of most shooters would never run enough ammo through either caliber to prove it either way. Let alone shoot enough hot loaded, high performance defense ammunition, that can cost upward of a buck a pop. That includes law enforcement as well. Most police carry a lot, but shoot very little. Especially now with public service budgets shrinking all the time.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: billt460
The .40 is dying. [...]
Reduced sales perhaps, but I would be highly skeptical that it will disappear completely--especially with the handloading supplies that are available. From my experience, there are more choices for bullets for .40/10MM than there ever have been and certainly since the mid-90s.

 

[bunnspecial]

Unfortunately, much the same has happened with the 38 super. Granted I know it's never enjoyed the popularity(at least in the US) of other loads of the same caliber, but a standard loading of it can be quite potent.

I know of one commercial SD ammo for it-Winchester Silvertips. The published load data(and my chrono tests) show that the 38 Super silvertips are have almost no advantage over 9mm loads, and in fact some 9mm +P beats them.

Fiocchi and the like do a good job of getting close to the "real" ballistics of the round, but of course only make ball ammo and not hollowpoints.

I COULD buy Gold Dots or XTPs and load them to book specs(Blue Dot can make the cartridge really sing, and there are some other new powders like CFE Pistol that do really well in it) but for a variety of reasons I won't carry handloads for self defense. If I'm going to stick to factory ammo, why carry a 1911 with 8 or 9 rounds of what is effectively 9mm rather than a purpose designed 9mm gun?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Reduced sales perhaps, but I would be highly skeptical that it will disappear completely--especially with the handloading supplies that are available.....


I agree. It won't completely disappear because there are too many guns being chambered in it. And much like the .41 Magnum, there are a few highly dedicated followers of the caliber to keep it being chambered, and ammo makers will keep producing it. Albeit in fewer loadings. But it's safe to say it's days of being first choice for law enforcement are long gone.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Besides, 95% of most shooters would never run enough ammo through either caliber to prove it either way. Let alone shoot enough hot loaded, high performance defense ammunition, that can cost upward of a buck a pop. That includes law enforcement as well. Most police carry a lot, but shoot very little. Especially now with public service budgets shrinking all the time.

That's the thing...and it might be closer to 100%.I would not carry a firearm that has not gotten at least 1000 rounds through it trouble free. Making sure I shoot it booth left and right handed..both limp wristed. As such I carry hardball of the ammo that has proven itself for at least 1000. Ideal? No.

There are always compromises. If you are goiong to shoot someone you better make sure it is a 100% shot and you know what is in back of that target. Not saying that is right and I won't defend my philosophy.

 

[billt460]

Then there is this:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/defensive-carry-caliber-and-incapacitation/

"Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40 and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what caliber you are shooting, you can only expect around half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit."

If you look at the percentage of shootings not resulting in incapacitation, the numbers are almost identical. The .38, 9mm, .40 and .45 all had failure rates of between 13 and 17 percent."

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
.... What's the latest on Glock's drama? Is he still running around with a 30ish year old woman after pulling a douche move and cutting out his family..... after a stroke? More power to him but he's not exactly leaving a legacy behind to run the company. ....


On the sort of personal level, I believe the civil racketeering suit was dismissed at the trial court level, but will certainly be appealed. Lots of other litigation still out there.

If so, he can add that to his vertical fin "not a racketeer". Not as catchy as perfection, though.

If just half of what has been said about him in court is true, in my opinion he is a very bad human being. I have four in the safe here at the office, and others elsewhere, but I wouldn't buy any more of them. If they were all that, I could overlook the other stuff, but to me they're not, and I don't care to.

 

[bubbatime]

Glock will be dead soon, and hopefully the company will renovate and modernize, just like Ruger did after Bill Ruger died.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Glock will be dead soon,.......


http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/30/news/companies/glock-gun-contract-fbi/

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Glock will be dead soon,.......


http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/30/news/companies/glock-gun-contract-fbi/



He's referring to Gaston, not the actual company.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Glock will be dead soon, and hopefully the company will renovate and modernize, just like Ruger did after Bill Ruger died.

I assume that's tongue in cheek.

Love the lpc but (to me) the lp9s is a dud (got rid of mine)

 

[bubbatime]

Gaston Glock, the 80 plus year old billionaire that owns the company, will be dead soon.

 

[SKVenture]

Originally Posted By: JDM396


However, how often do you see an M&P do this?



Realistically, probably just as often.



Considering Glocks outsell the M&P probably 5-1 it's no surprise we hear about Glocks failing like that more often. However I would wager the actual stats are near identical as I strongly feel both Glock and S&W build very good guns.

These failures we see are 99.9% of the time a by-product of overpowered ammo. Even factory New ammo can have a hot load hear and there. Factories pumping out millions of rounds a year its inevitable.

 

[The_Eric]

If we adjust for time on the market, I wonder where S&W would come in? I'm sure Glock has more out there because they have been out for much longer (striker fired, poly pistol).

It looks like 1980 for Glock and what? 2007 for the M&P. So Glock has a 27 year jump on the market. Who wants to adjust for time in the market?

FWIW, it doesn't matter to me. Glock or M&P. I own M&P and my next poly gun will be the CZ P10C, but realize Glock is great too. Mostly just curious how well the market is receiving the M&P compared to the Glock in current times.