Yes, I think it is quite impressive when a 2-door coupe (Hyundai Tiburon) with a 170HP 2.7L V6 gets a 2MPG city/highway mileage improvement over a 1988 Mustang GT (with a 225HP 5.0L V8).
How DO they manage such an impressive feat?
GM to Install Engines From China
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How DO they manage such an impressive feat?
"they are much better than you think,"
I've owned one (a KIA Sedona). Uhmm..... No they're NOT!
I learned my lesson the hard way. Go against your convictions and better judgment and you end up in a KIA. Man, was that a bad Idea.
[ February 24, 2006, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: norseman ]
I've owned one (a KIA Sedona). Uhmm..... No they're NOT!
I learned my lesson the hard way. Go against your convictions and better judgment and you end up in a KIA. Man, was that a bad Idea.
[ February 24, 2006, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: norseman ]
PandaBear, unfortunate for individuals for sure, but the companies and the countries they reside in all have treaties to do away with the double taxing.
unDummy
Member
Member # 962
posted 24 February, 2006 12:09 PM
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I work here and pay taxes here. But, just like foreign companies, I don't pay taxes to every country in the world. Sorry, but that IRS/tax complaint is **. Get over it. It almost as bad as expecting everyone in the world to pay us taxes.
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I could not disagree more, the reduced government revenue from these deferments and loopholes is significant to the infrastructure to these United States of America. At least if you buy from American owned companies you know the taxes they must pay and cannot weasel out of from poor tax law and legislation, is going to the infrasturucture of this country--from everything to defense, the roads you drive on, and your kid's education. I find all those reasons reason enough to at least try and support US businesses. Does that mean I do not support competition? Hardly. I just want a level playing field and the same business rights foreign companies enjoy here, for US business in said foreign countries.
unDummy
Member
Member # 962
posted 24 February, 2006 12:09 PM
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I work here and pay taxes here. But, just like foreign companies, I don't pay taxes to every country in the world. Sorry, but that IRS/tax complaint is **. Get over it. It almost as bad as expecting everyone in the world to pay us taxes.
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I could not disagree more, the reduced government revenue from these deferments and loopholes is significant to the infrastructure to these United States of America. At least if you buy from American owned companies you know the taxes they must pay and cannot weasel out of from poor tax law and legislation, is going to the infrasturucture of this country--from everything to defense, the roads you drive on, and your kid's education. I find all those reasons reason enough to at least try and support US businesses. Does that mean I do not support competition? Hardly. I just want a level playing field and the same business rights foreign companies enjoy here, for US business in said foreign countries.
Our tax codes are broke and place our businesses at a disadvantage. Couple this with double taxation of corporate profits (corporation pays taxes on income and then individual owners of the corporation (stock holders) also pay an individual income tax on stock dividends) and its no wonder why Microsoft shielded 60 million dollars of income last year from proprietary intellectual property by registering the properties with an offshoot Irish company.
The funny thing is that many politicians and citizens want to raise taxes higher on US companies and then biatch about jobs going overseas. Aren't these the same people who says we can't racially profile arabs individually at an airport security checkpoint but say its ok to racially profile an entire country (UAE), a country which donated over 100 million dollars to Katrina relief.
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I wish I could buy an American car such as a GM product. My friend had his GM intake gasket go out on him at 56k miles and he had a tough time coming up with the 1,000 dollars to have it repaired. As soon as he finishes his PharmD degree, he told me he is going to buy a Toyota. Come on GM, you can do better. Do you think building it cheaper will help your already dismal quality problems?
The funny thing is that many politicians and citizens want to raise taxes higher on US companies and then biatch about jobs going overseas. Aren't these the same people who says we can't racially profile arabs individually at an airport security checkpoint but say its ok to racially profile an entire country (UAE), a country which donated over 100 million dollars to Katrina relief.
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I wish I could buy an American car such as a GM product. My friend had his GM intake gasket go out on him at 56k miles and he had a tough time coming up with the 1,000 dollars to have it repaired. As soon as he finishes his PharmD degree, he told me he is going to buy a Toyota. Come on GM, you can do better. Do you think building it cheaper will help your already dismal quality problems?
For those who want to help the country and buy American, look at the domestic parts contents sticker on the window of any new car. Even American companies will sell some models with a high import parts content and assembled in another country. Boy don't the import lovers jump all over that. Fact remains the average parts content on a Toyota sold in the USA has a 40% parts content and the average GM has over an 80% parts content. So you can call us "buy American" folks knuckle draggers all you want but those are the hard facts. You have to do your homework if you're concerned with buying American products from American manufacturers. And I'm not trying to ride a high horse either. I own a Dodge p/u but GM and Ford will take preference in the future since they are the last two American manufacturers left.
In my opinion, GMs coompetition is not Ford or Chrysler. It's Kia and Hyundia and whatever other brand of good quality imported car that rolls ashore in the U.S. Threfore, to compete with people who are happy, or at least satisfied with $3.50 manufacturing jobs in India, China, Korea, Taiwan, and the rest, GM must attempt to offer a comparable product at the same or better prices.
And to throw another wrinkle into the picture, as fast as manpower and its assocated costs can be eliminated through the use of robotics and computers, it will be eliminated. A quarter-million dollar robot that works 24/7/365 with no benefit costs, no union hassles, no quality issues is a bargain for a manufacturer. Once labor costs in the far east exceed the cost of buying robots, then those positions will also be in jeapardy.
The question I find interesting is: who is going to earn enough money in the future to buy a new car? If GM, VW, Honda, etc. think they're going to be selling $30,000. cars to service workers earning $15,000 per year they may be in for a rude awakening.
One reason so many people can still "afford" to be in newer vehicles today is because they rent them - in the form of a lease. But when even the lease payments are outside of people's budgets I think there will be a wide scale shakeup of the auto industry around the world. That, or people will be forced to "settle" for less than what they would have purchased. Or there will be a used car lease market. Or some other devise to allow people to believe they are still living "the good life,"
JMO.
Glen
And to throw another wrinkle into the picture, as fast as manpower and its assocated costs can be eliminated through the use of robotics and computers, it will be eliminated. A quarter-million dollar robot that works 24/7/365 with no benefit costs, no union hassles, no quality issues is a bargain for a manufacturer. Once labor costs in the far east exceed the cost of buying robots, then those positions will also be in jeapardy.
The question I find interesting is: who is going to earn enough money in the future to buy a new car? If GM, VW, Honda, etc. think they're going to be selling $30,000. cars to service workers earning $15,000 per year they may be in for a rude awakening.
One reason so many people can still "afford" to be in newer vehicles today is because they rent them - in the form of a lease. But when even the lease payments are outside of people's budgets I think there will be a wide scale shakeup of the auto industry around the world. That, or people will be forced to "settle" for less than what they would have purchased. Or there will be a used car lease market. Or some other devise to allow people to believe they are still living "the good life,"
JMO.
Glen
Well lets see:
90% of my wifes Malibu MAXX is US content.
And Aprox 85% of my Z71 is US content.
"Considering that almost all the parts (Pontiac Sunfire) in my car came from outside the US... "
Are you so sure of that??
Domestic Content: 76 percent
Source:
http://marketplace.nwsource.com/autos/researchit/content/review111601.html
90% of my wifes Malibu MAXX is US content.
And Aprox 85% of my Z71 is US content.
"Considering that almost all the parts (Pontiac Sunfire) in my car came from outside the US... "
Are you so sure of that??
Domestic Content: 76 percent
Source:
http://marketplace.nwsource.com/autos/researchit/content/review111601.html
I work here and pay taxes here. But, just like foreign companies, I don't pay taxes to every country in the world. Sorry, but that IRS/tax complaint is **. Get over it. It almost as bad as expecting everyone in the world to pay us taxes. Loopholes, I got loopholes too. I claim myself, my kid, file head of household, deduct mortgage interest/property tax/donations/stock losses............. Its only a loophole when you can't benefit from it.
If the Chineses can build a better engine, good for them. Sorry, I've seen too many crap domestic engines spitting out sparkplugs, self destructing 'cause of coolant leaks, and dying because numerous other issues.
My next new car won't be based on where it was made. Its a simple decision. I'll buy what I can afford, and what fits me the best for my driving style. More than likely, it'll be a Hyundai or Kia. The Toyo/Nis/Hon dealers around here are arrogant ***holes. The domestic vehicles are pathetic.
If the Chineses can build a better engine, good for them. Sorry, I've seen too many crap domestic engines spitting out sparkplugs, self destructing 'cause of coolant leaks, and dying because numerous other issues.
My next new car won't be based on where it was made. Its a simple decision. I'll buy what I can afford, and what fits me the best for my driving style. More than likely, it'll be a Hyundai or Kia. The Toyo/Nis/Hon dealers around here are arrogant ***holes. The domestic vehicles are pathetic.
norseman - I am not 100% sure of that. Just an observation.
I'm the type of person that tries to buy Made in USA whenever possible. I personally like my Sunfire more than a Honda or Toyota equivalent and will continue to buy GM/Ford (depending on my next vehicle).
I'm the type of person that tries to buy Made in USA whenever possible. I personally like my Sunfire more than a Honda or Toyota equivalent and will continue to buy GM/Ford (depending on my next vehicle).
Leasing came to be because many people couldn't afford to pay off a new car with a normal 4-5 year loan. With leasing, you can "rent" it for 3-4 years and then finance it for another 3-4 years. Makes about as much sense as interest-only mortgages..lol! I buy used cars, 3 years old for 1/3-1/2 the price of new. Let someone else take the depreciation hit.
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Quote: "norseman" I've owned one (a KIA Sedona). Uhmm..... No they're NOT!
So you have had one lemon out of how many sold.....
How many GM's or Ford owners have had problems (in per capita sales of vehicles)? Not trying to bash GM or Ford, but there is a reason why GM's sales have slumped so bad over the recent years, and why Hyundai/KIA's have went up. This was covered in past threads.
quote: Brianl703:Yes, I think it is quite impressive when a 2-door coupe (Hyundai Tiburon) with a 170HP 2.7L V6 gets a 2MPG city/highway mileage improvement over a 1988 Mustang GT (with a 225HP 5.0L V8).
Just the same as why a new Mustang with 300HP takes 2 more cylinders than a Nissan V-6 used in the 350Z that also makes 300hp....Yes, quite impressive those Asians!
we could make Ford vs Chevy vs Asian vs European vs whatever all day long, the facts still remain. If you buy "American" because your worried about taxes, perhaps changing your Govt through voting and such would be a better investment. On the other hand as well, those tax 'breaks' have landed companies like Toyota and Honda and Hyundai to build plants here in the USA and supporting US workers, and dumping $$ here. I am sure GM's getting some huge breaks on those Chinese Engines, your buying them, and yet you still complain about where the moneys going. World infrastructure is getting so intertwined anymore that 'buy USA' almost means nothing. Sure, you can buy that American made bolt from the hardware store, that was made in America and does not require a country of origin sticker, but you bought that bolt, made in America, by Americans, with Canadian Steel, owned by a Chinese Company, which was financed by a British bank. Go figure.
[ February 25, 2006, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Tim H. ]
So you have had one lemon out of how many sold.....
How many GM's or Ford owners have had problems (in per capita sales of vehicles)? Not trying to bash GM or Ford, but there is a reason why GM's sales have slumped so bad over the recent years, and why Hyundai/KIA's have went up. This was covered in past threads.
quote: Brianl703:Yes, I think it is quite impressive when a 2-door coupe (Hyundai Tiburon) with a 170HP 2.7L V6 gets a 2MPG city/highway mileage improvement over a 1988 Mustang GT (with a 225HP 5.0L V8).
Just the same as why a new Mustang with 300HP takes 2 more cylinders than a Nissan V-6 used in the 350Z that also makes 300hp....Yes, quite impressive those Asians!
we could make Ford vs Chevy vs Asian vs European vs whatever all day long, the facts still remain. If you buy "American" because your worried about taxes, perhaps changing your Govt through voting and such would be a better investment. On the other hand as well, those tax 'breaks' have landed companies like Toyota and Honda and Hyundai to build plants here in the USA and supporting US workers, and dumping $$ here. I am sure GM's getting some huge breaks on those Chinese Engines, your buying them, and yet you still complain about where the moneys going. World infrastructure is getting so intertwined anymore that 'buy USA' almost means nothing. Sure, you can buy that American made bolt from the hardware store, that was made in America and does not require a country of origin sticker, but you bought that bolt, made in America, by Americans, with Canadian Steel, owned by a Chinese Company, which was financed by a British bank. Go figure.
[ February 25, 2006, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Tim H. ]
I think the fact remains that if you look at the kind of fuel economy some Kia and Hyundai are getting, it's not very good compared to the competition. This isn't about "HP per litre" although they're not very good in that measure either. (Also, Nissan is not Kia or Hyundai unless you know something I don't).
As far as taxes go--"privatize profits, socialize costs". Tax the public to pay for the social needs/wants of employees, particularly ones who would not even be here were it not for the company that hired them... I suppose it can be justified by saying, "Well, those goods/services are cheaper now that we have employees that don't cost us very much" but what about the taxpayers who don't use your goods/services and therefore don't reap the "savings"?
This may not be intentional but I sure don't see many politicians doing anything about the situation. They seem to like it.
[ February 25, 2006, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]
As far as taxes go--"privatize profits, socialize costs". Tax the public to pay for the social needs/wants of employees, particularly ones who would not even be here were it not for the company that hired them... I suppose it can be justified by saying, "Well, those goods/services are cheaper now that we have employees that don't cost us very much" but what about the taxpayers who don't use your goods/services and therefore don't reap the "savings"?
This may not be intentional but I sure don't see many politicians doing anything about the situation. They seem to like it.
[ February 25, 2006, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]
Yes, both Norseman's experience and this data are statistical aberrations:
2004 Vehicle Dependability Study, Corporate Ranking, Problems Per 100 Vehicles
General Motors 262
Industry average 269
Ford Motor Company 275
Hyundai Motor America 375
Kia Motors America 432
Like I said, statistically invalid. These numbers don't mean anything.
(I can hear it now.."bb..bbb...bbbuut...GM is paying JD Power off...or...bb..bb...bbbuuutt..those numbers are for 2004, where's the 2006 numbers?"). Etc.
BTW, 2006 numbers will probably come out in July. As for the 2005 numbers, they're out there somewhere, and they showed just about the same thing: Hyundai and Kia are at the bottom.
EDIT: In 2005 only Kia is at the bottom, with 397. Hyundai moved up but at 260 is still below the industry average of 237.
As far as the source of the data:
"The 2004 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from more than 48,000 original owners of 2001 model-year cars and light trucks"
I bet GM paid off those owners to say nice things about their cars and trucks. Yep. That's it.
[ February 25, 2006, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]
Propflux01
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.....And that same fuel economy issue helped drive Asian vehicles right up the big 3's ***es back in the 70's. I used the Nissan only as an example that there are more numbers to crunch then whether it gets 2mpg more or less than a Mustang. If the cars were so bad and outdated, why are they making such decent sales? "Big 3" defenders never seem to have an answer for that. OK, so the Hyundai may not get as good a mileage as something else. Facts are facts, they are still selling like hotcakes, and those sales are growing each year. There must be a reason for this. Seems like a repeat of what the Japanese manufactures did in the US a few years back. And that was when they made them in Japan...
I think Politicians like it because no one is telling them that they disagree with it.
I think Politicians like it because no one is telling them that they disagree with it.
They're really cheap cars..but the reliability stats seem to indicate that, as with anything else, you don't get more than what you pay for.
As far as politicians go, check out California's Proposition 187 sometime. They were told, and they ignored it.
As far as politicians go, check out California's Proposition 187 sometime. They were told, and they ignored it.
Funny how a legitimate topic with a political undercurrent can get folks riled. Two observations on that which are only superficially contradictory: 1. This is a country where we can have such disgreements with civility and legal protection. 2. Borders are artificial; we made them up; they are not naturally occuring, even with oceanic separations. That is what they mean when they say "global economy." What they also mean, but have not yet said, is "global polity." That may be scary to some, but in fact it has always been the case; we just don't normally think of it that way.
The "internationality" of cars, car parts, car distribution and sales, is one function of that more basic fact of our world. Personally, I think there are much more troubling things here and in the rest of the world to worry about, like what it would be like to see Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reilly in the Ultimate Fighting octagon!
The "internationality" of cars, car parts, car distribution and sales, is one function of that more basic fact of our world. Personally, I think there are much more troubling things here and in the rest of the world to worry about, like what it would be like to see Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reilly in the Ultimate Fighting octagon!
Borders are artificial..So are property lines, come to think of it.
I think sometimes when you look at statistics they can be misleading.. A crappier class of owner is more likely to buy a hyundai or kia. Then not do the maintence on it. Or use generic parts or fluids when
they should be using OE. Vs charles buying his
mercedes and having it serviced at the dealer
according to the papers they send him in the mail.
Then again 2001 hyundai accents were specced for
SG or SH oil I forget. 2006 are specced for SJ?
they should be using OE. Vs charles buying his
mercedes and having it serviced at the dealer
according to the papers they send him in the mail.
Then again 2001 hyundai accents were specced for
SG or SH oil I forget. 2006 are specced for SJ?
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