GM recommends Mobil 1 15w50 for 2016 Corvette

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Interesting reading lately that the new (Corvette propelled) CamaroZ can stay on the track longer than engine donor - since it has more air passing the bigger grill - both cars having high capacity/tech (dry sump) lube systems ...
Ironically the cooling system is doing just that - and the oil cooler is cooling oil ...
 
If you have a copy of SAE paper 2001-01-1073, then post it up somehow. Otherwise I'm not going to even digest your "summary" of what it says without reading the whole paper.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you have a copy of SAE paper 2001-01-1073, then post it up somehow. Otherwise I'm not going to even digest your "summary" of what it says.


I bought it
I read it

Both of which are a step ahead of yourself, and consistent with what you challenged me to do...

What's your problem NOW ???

And NO, you aren't getting it, as having downloaded from my account, it's watermarked with my details.
 
Quote:
One should not conclude that piston-bore friction is not important or is missing from this analysis from the fact that this energy transfer to the oil from piston-bore friction is not a significant source of energy into the oil.The energy generated by piston-bore friction used in this study was 8 kW (for the entire engine). This energy transfer rate is on the order of the piston under crown energy transfer rate to the oil. However, the piston-bore friction energy transfers into the engine metal structure and not directly into the oil, as discussed previously


So the piston/bore friction is about the same as the undercrown transfer, but netted off before being added...makes the undercrown transfer only about 40% really...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
However, in the tables, they DO show that the contribution from the bearings rose from 13 to 19% between 2,000RPM and 4,000RPM W.O.T., while the heat through the piston dropped from 76% to 72%.


So here again is that contribution split of heat input to the oil between pistons and bearings ... with the heat load percentage going into the oil from the hot pistons being 5 times higher than the bearings.

So you really think that if 75% of all the heat going into the oil is from the hot pistons at WOT at X RPM, and only 15% is from the main bearings at X RPM, that the sump is going to basically remain the same temperature if engine was turning over at X RPM with the throttle cut way back to a minimum HP output?

Like said earlier, unless the cooling system is some crazy 100% efficiency system (which they are not), then gobs of heat generated by combustion at WOT will never be fully absorbed by the cooling system, which means the oil will absorb much of that extra heat and cause the sump oil to heat up more than it would without the high combustion rate - assuming there is no oil cooler in use. If there's an oil cooler in use to carry heat away from the sump, then what we are talking about doesn't fit.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I still maintain that the "Delta T" (note delta T, the premise for speccing higher viscosity in the OP's manual) between road speed operation and track operation is primarily due to the operation of the engine at higher speeds, not higher loads.


Maybe he should do the road test and tell us if cruising down a flat road at 4,000 RPM for 10 miles (low HP run) vs climbing a steep mountain pass at 4,000 RPM for 10 miles (higher HP run) with a heavy passenger and some cargo gives him a different sump temperature. The more HP the engine puts out the hotter the pistons (and other parts in contact with the oil) will run, which means as HP output increases due to higher throttle/loads, the sump temperature increase should also go up (with no oil cooler present of course). You think it won't, I think it will.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
You think it won't, I think it will.


No, again, it's you saying what I think because it helps your simplistic strawman mentality, even when I've ACTUALLY told you what I think and understand.

I have never denied that load changes oil temperatures, however my position is that the RPM factor in motorsport applications is the higher of the two influences on oil temperature.

my Caprice, the 4,000RPM run is 40C hotter than 1,700-1,800...I'm NOT going to get another 40C by adding load to it...THAT's my position, regardless of what you keep repeating.
 
^^^ I never said you'd get another 40C rise due to combustion. My position is, and always has been, that the sump temperature (without an oil cooler) is going to run hotter than just a few degrees more due to the difference of making 30 HP at 4000 RPM vs making 300+ HP at 4000 RPM. It may not be 40C more, but could be 15~20C more, which is significant when the oil is already heated up from the RPM factor. Also, the exact rise due to the high HP combustion factor depends on a lot of things specific to the motor in question. But if you think the heat rise is going to be just a few degrees more then you're fooling yourself.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ I never said you'd get another 40C rise due to combustion. My position is, and always has been, that the sump temperature (without an oil cooler) is going to run hotter than just a few degrees more due to the difference of making 30 HP at 4000 RPM vs making 300+ HP at 4000 RPM. It may not be 40C more, but could be 15~20C more, which is significant when the oil is already heated up from the RPM factor. Also, the exact rise due to the high HP combustion factor depends on a lot of things specific to the motor in question. But if you think the heat rise is going to be just a few degrees more then you're fooling yourself.


Have a look at the test protocols in this paper...you only need to read the summary available on line...

http://papers.sae.org/770627/

4,000RPM at 55MPH in second gear garnered 145C bearing temperatures, then sudden application of full throttle out to 4,300RPM increased the temperatures by around 6C.
 
Google Books Link from Vehicle thermal Management Systems Conference and Exhibition (VTMS10)

Quote:
The first two runs examine the effect of engine power by varying engine load. The results show a 10$ reduction in engine load only reduces fluid temperatures by a little over 1C, and lap times ((Nurbergring) by less than 5 seconds. A 10% increase has a similar opposite effect. The small effect of fluid temperatures is due to the relativley small change in heat rejection with reduced load. Engine speed has a much greater effect on heat rejections than load so that for a constant power condition a high engine speed and low engine load condition will reject more heat than a low speed high load condition.


Quote:
Firstly, the effect of one of the key assumptions in the analysis was tested. Vehicles are driven around the Nurburgring in their most aggressive condition whcih means using the gearbox in manual mode. This is simulated by setting aggressive gear up and down shift speeds in the cycle generation (e.g. change up at 6500RPM and down at 3,500RPM.
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The effect of varying the set up-shift speed in three comparisons shows the strong link with cooling performance described above. Increasing the upshift speed, hence raising the average engine speed increases heat rejection and fluid temperatures by about 2.5C for a 300RPM increase, and 3.5C for a 500RPM increase. A 500RPM drop in up-shift speed shows a reduction of about 2.5C. This case also shows a drop of only 1.3s in lap times confirming that limiting engine speed is an effective way of controlling excessive temperatures without a dramatic impact on performance.


Goes on to explain the difference in full auto and auto sport modes (2,000 to 4,000 RPM ranges and 2,000 to 5,000RPM respectively).

Also looks at the effect of gradient, 3C difference between having a gradient for a section and removing it.

As always, will try to find the paper itself...but they are the words.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Google Books Link from Vehicle thermal Management Systems Conference and Exhibition (VTMS10)

Quote:
The first two runs examine the effect of engine power by varying engine load. The results show a 10$ reduction in engine load only reduces fluid temperatures by a little over 1C, and lap times ((Nurbergring) by less than 5 seconds. A 10% increase has a similar opposite effect. The small effect of fluid temperatures is due to the relativley small change in heat rejection with reduced load. Engine speed has a much greater effect on heat rejections than load so that for a constant power condition a high engine speed and low engine load condition will reject more heat than a low speed high load condition.


Quote:
Firstly, the effect of one of the key assumptions in the analysis was tested. Vehicles are driven around the Nurburgring in their most aggressive condition whcih means using the gearbox in manual mode. This is simulated by setting aggressive gear up and down shift speeds in the cycle generation (e.g. change up at 6500RPM and down at 3,500RPM.
.
.
.
The effect of varying the set up-shift speed in three comparisons shows the strong link with cooling performance described above. Increasing the upshift speed, hence raising the average engine speed increases heat rejection and fluid temperatures by about 2.5C for a 300RPM increase, and 3.5C for a 500RPM increase. A 500RPM drop in up-shift speed shows a reduction of about 2.5C. This case also shows a drop of only 1.3s in lap times confirming that limiting engine speed is an effective way of controlling excessive temperatures without a dramatic impact on performance.


Goes on to explain the difference in full auto and auto sport modes (2,000 to 4,000 RPM ranges and 2,000 to 5,000RPM respectively).

Also looks at the effect of gradient, 3C difference between having a gradient for a section and removing it.

As always, will try to find the paper itself...but they are the words.


For the parts I can see in the link, it looks like they are talking mostly about coolant temperatures, not oil sump temperatures. Plus the first 4 pages (536-539) can't be seen to give more info. Also see Section 3, and Figures 3 & 4 which are plotting coolant temperatures. I see no plots for oil temperatures.

Section 2.2.3 however does mention the effect of reducing the coolant system flow by 18%, which made the oil temperature increase twice as much as the coolant temperature. Goes to show that the oil temperature is very sensitive to the coolant system performance, because the less heat you take out of the pistons and other parts that heat up from combustion, the more heat the oil will have to absorb.



As I said earlier, the cooling system can't take all of the heat of combustion out of the engine (even with a good cooling system), and the less effective the cooling system is, the more the oil temperature in the sump will increase as shown by your link. Also realize that pushing the car hard on the track is going to tax the cooling system, which will increase the cooling system's overall bulk temperature and make it less effective, which will enable even more heat rejection into the oil. Many things are going at the same time that are intertwined. And if you don't have any kind of oil cooler, it doesn't take very long while pushing a car really hard on the track to get oil dangerously hot.
 
So you are accepting of the fact that elevated RPM rather then applied HP in and of itself gets you there all the sooner
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
So you are accepting of the fact that elevated RPM rather then applied HP in and of itself gets you there all the sooner
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Yes, I agree - it's all heat sources combined that causes sump temps to rise. I never said that the added heat of combustion from high HP is the main driver. I said heat from high HP just makes it worse, especially if the cooling system is lacking and/or there is no oil cooler. Remember my example of 4000 RPM at 30 HP vs 4000 HP at 300 HP, and that the scenario at 300 HP is going to give you hotter oil sump temps, and the added heat could be more than a few degrees.

Towing heavy loads vs not, or towing up long steep grades is the example that I was correlating the increased HP level to as also another source adding additional heat into the oil - same basic scenario happens to a race car on the track when it's constantly putting out lots of HP - along with the heat caused by high RPM too.

For instance, here's a couple post snips from a chat board where guys talk all day about their coolant and oil temperatures while towing a heavy trailer around the country. I doubt these trucks are WOT while towing either, but they are having to use more throttle (ie, more HP) in order to tow a heavy trailer at the same speed and up steep hills.

Oil temp went 40 to 60 deg F higher when towing up hills vs on flat land. His oil temp is probably around 190~200 F with no trailer, so might see a 20~30F rise with towing a trailer on flat roads.


This guy sees 20 deg F higher oil temps on hills vs flat land, and even more temp increase on long steep hills.


If you conducted a similar test doing your 4000 RPM temp rise with your car, but instead towing a heavy trailer behind your car, you'd see similar increased oil temperature rises vs not towing. And even more temperature rise if you pulled that heavy trailer up a long steep hill. All the heat from making more HP has to go somewhere, and a decent amount still gets absorbed by the oil.

Cheers
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Originally Posted By: userfriendly
What would be a good engine oil for heavy towing up mountain passes on hot days with the 420 HP 6.2L?


One that won't get too thin at 280 deg F to be safe.
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I'd say something in the xW-40 category and full synthetic. What's the manual say?
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
What would be a good engine oil for heavy towing up mountain passes on hot days with the 420 HP 6.2L?


One that won't get too thin at 280 deg F to be safe.
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I'd say something in the xW-40 category and full synthetic. What's the manual say?


My thoughts exactly. Without looking at the owners manual Mobil 1 0w40 and Castrol Edge 0W40 come to mind.
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
The manual says 0w20. www.gm.ca


If a person is inclined to follow the OM to the letter and that's the only choice I'd say go for it. Those one size fits all specs scare me though.
 
The same engine in the Corvette is 5w30 with optional 15w50. Why not include the 1500 with the max trailer option?

Edit; The max trailer option has lower gearing, 3.42 instead of 3.29 for higher RPM while towing.
From what I am reading, higher RPM & loads both contribute to elevated engine temperature.
 
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