GM on Oiled Air Filters deny warranty claims

[edhackett]

10W-40 didn't cause the early problems in gasoline engines that were seen in diesels. They worked just as well (poorly) in all gasoline engines, including GMs. There are plenty of people here who have seen the lives of engines of all makes cut short due to the 10W-40 oils of the '70s and '80s. The group I base stocks and shear prone viscosity index improvers made an oil that was only suitable for very light duty service with short oil change intervals. The problem was the viscosity spread. It took a large amount of viscosity index improver to create a 10W-40 and under heat these broke down and formed deposits. It happened in both gas and diesel engines. The process was accelerated in diesels due to their higher piston temperatures.

Yes, 10W-40s are better now. The advent of group II and II+ base oils and new, shear and heat stable viscosity index improvers have made 10W-40 viable in gasoline engines. They are still not the proper oil for most diesels. In a non synthetic, 15W-40 HDEOs are the oils of choice for diesel applications and are a better choice than 10W-40 in many gasoline applications. I run Chevron Delo 15W-40 in my GMC 5.7 gasoline engine. Todays oils are much better, but an oil with a narrower viscosity spread is still the better oil. I still won't use a 10W-40 or 5W-30 non synthetic oil in any of my vehicles. I stick with 10W-30 or 15W-40 if not running a synthetic.

GM had just entered the market with diesel engines in light duty trucks and cars. Should GM have recommended 10w-40 in a diesel in the first place? No. Did they do enough field testing to find that out? Obviously not. I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they banned 10w-40 in all their engines based on the poor performance they saw in the diesels. They could recommend 10W-40 for their gasoline engines now, but CAFE is an issue at this time, so they won't. CAFE was not the reason for the initial prohibition on 10W-40, it was for sound technical reasons.

Ed

 

[jbas]

Mmmm, Time Warp Check - During that time, 10W-40s were the primary grade of oil (for consumers), and I cannot remember any industry-wide purging of ineffective 10W-40s. I don't know what the market share was, but 10W-40s dominated.

I do remember that the 10W-30s were noted for not maintaining grade very well. (In fact, you bought the 40s expecting the drop to 30; and the 30s would eventually run as water-like).

Yes, in theory the VI improver and other adds were suppose to be used up (burned up?), and in turn cause problems, but in reality there was no industry wide problem and no real alternative (the 10W-30s were weak). Until Ed said it, I didn't know the 10w-40s were pulled by GM because of diesel problems, but GM's diesels were horrible engines, and that makes for a convenient GM excuse. Why GM bled the "ban" over to their gas engines, being the two engine designs are so different, is interesting.

Regards, jbas.

 

[haley10]

I lost my 1st engine (Ford 289) to the terrible 10W-40 available in the early 70's!! I will never use a conventional 10W-40 to this day.

This was fact and not a scam at all. It was some pretty bad oil for any engine.

Why it was ever recommended??

 

[jbas]

quote:

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Anyway, the ban may have spilled over because the gas engines were so similar, vs. being so different.

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Very true, good point. Functionally different but used the gas design.

If I was showing up for warranty work, I'd still make sure the OEM was re-installed in the filter housing, if the GM mechanics are being told to look for this in order to (possibly) deny warranty claims.

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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There are plenty of people here who have seen the lives of engines of all makes cut short due to the 10W-40 oils of the '70s and '80s

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GM is certainly not the only company which forbids the use of 10W-40 oils. The owner's manual for my 1996 Volvo SPECIFICALLY warns against the use of 10W-40 motor oils. It goes on to recommend 15W-40 as the best grade to use when ambient temps are above freezing, 10W-30 for mixed use and 5W-30 for cold weather conditions. A nice little bar chart showing oil grade to use based on expected ambient temps is printing right in the manual.

Volvo goes on to recommend the use of synthetic oils when severe conditions such as very hot or very cold temperatures, prolonged stop and go driving, trailer towing and/or extended mountain terrain driving are the norm.

All in all I have found Volvo's recommendations to make complete sense. Any company which documents the requirement to flush brake fluid once ever 24 months is on top of it's game in my book!

John

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by jbas:
Until Ed said it, I didn't know the 10w-40s were pulled by GM because of diesel problems, but GM's diesels were horrible engines, and that makes for a convenient GM excuse. Why GM bled the "ban" over to their gas engines, being the two engine designs are so different, is interesting.

Regards, jbas.

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Ah, I remember that GM diesel debacle well. One of my Dad's work friends bought an Olds with the V-8, and it was a non-stop nightmare. He quickly bought a second car because he needed to get around, and no one would take his Olds for any reasonable money... Anyway, the ban may have spilled over because the gas engines were so similar, vs. being so different. My recollection is that the primary reason they were so bad was that GM tried to "dieselize" normal gas engines while making little or no accomodation of the harsher condtions inherent with a compression ingition engine (notably, they failed to strengthen against vibration in either the engines themselves or the associated transmissions). Notice how even the displacements of the two prime examples didn't change from their gas counterparts (4.3 and 5.7L). Regardless of the engine history, though, GM may well have been trying to shift blame for this disaster by pointing the finger at the crappy oils of the day, and 10W-40 was a good scapegoat.

 

[ekpolk]

And back to the main point of this thread. Reading the earlier posts, I think a warranty clarification is in order. No, Moss-Magnuson (MM) will not apply TO aftermarket parts, like a K&N filter. If it fails, call K&N. That should be obvious. More importantly, the car maker can NOT declare your warranty void for use of an aftermarket part, nor can they refuse a repair of a failed part unless they can prove that the part CAUSED the failure at issue. What's key is to understand that they have to prove the cause of the failure, not you. Now, if you've got an oiled foam filter, and your MAF has gooey oil all over it, they may be able to meet their burden, but I'd still recommend having an independent shop check for other explanations, like maybe a PCV or breather problem. But as a starting point, the mere presence of an oiled foam filter does not, without more, void your MM warranty, and don't let a dealer service person tell you otherwise.

 

[jbas]

RE: 1996 Volvo.

I thought by '96, most car manufacturers had denounced everything but the 5W-30, and in rare exceptions, (like Kia) the 10W-30. Kudos for Volvo.

Interesting that Volvo feels its OK (if not recommended!) to change grades in accordance with the changing temperature environment. That is certainly not standard industry practice. Personally, I don't understand why a 15W-40 would work significantly better than a quality 10W-40 during the heat of summer, but that too is interesting.

Regards, jbas.

 

[Fastr1]

As a performance enthusiast I would like to believe that you could use these with no ill effect, but I can tell you from an ASE Mastertech in both auto and HD trucks that these oilable reuseable filters cause more driveability problems than performance gains with regards to MAF wire contamination not only on GM's but Fords and any one else that uses a Hot wire type maf. I also spoke with a rep from F_am about this and their Air H_gs and there was a smirk and 180 and walked away. Anyone that has messed with these and studied or knows flow has to figure you have to make a trade off to gain you have to lose. In this case it is quality versus quantity. Dirt in the air stream picks up oil and deposits them on the wire hence contamination.

Sorry guys but as a daily mechanic I see this far too often to believe that it is just over oiled filters causing this. Even other manufacturers reps look at me and won't comment on this problem.

Oh well so much for my 2 cents worth.

 

[tec97]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim H.:
If the filter is excessively oiled, and that oil caused a sensor to malfuction, than sorry, no leg for MM to stand on either...

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I think it's the whole 'excessively oiled' thing that is the bone of contention. A letter such as this from GM is an open invitation to dealers to attempt to deny warranty coverage solely on the presence of a K&N filter. Considering what crappy products GM makes, it doesn't surprise me that they are looking for any way possible to deny warranty coverage.

If the filter was excessively oiled, sure - that's operator error, but simply one being there? Please...

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by jbas:
RE: 1996 Volvo.
I don't understand why a 15W-40 would work significantly better than a quality 10W-40 during the heat of summer, but that too is interesting.

Regards, jbas.

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In the past, dino 10W-40 oils were inferior to 15W-40 dino oils in their HTHS capabilites and they sheared down faster. All else being equal, they still won't be quite as good as 15W-40

SAE J300 even states that 10W-40 is a light duty oil (not those exact words) and it is only required to have the same HTHS as a 30 weight while 15W-40 is required to have the same HTHS as a 50 weight.

What I don't understand is why anyone using dino oil would use a 10W-40 instead of a 15W-40. Unless they needed that little extra cold weather flow.

 

[jbas]

#650 - I'm sure that is/was true of many 15W-40s. It probably wasn't true of the Sear's Spectrum 15W-40 I used in upstate NY. Hate to think of how many engines I ruined early with that goop. I wished I had used a Pennzoil 10W-40.

#1 - Then it will be interesting to see how this plays out w/all the car-makers. I can only speak from my experience - and I had the MAF on a '97 Windstar get dirty, replaced, which cost a mint for this part($210? less exchange). I always used a paper filter, so they don't protect perfectly either.

Regards, jbas.

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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Sear's Spectrum 15W-40

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Just because it was a house brand labelled oil does not mean it is or was low quality. I don't know the history of Sears oil supplies, but most house branded products are good mid tier stuff made by major mfg.

For example, Sears PUT Whirlpool in business decades ago to create a reliable supplier for Kenmore products. To this day Whirlpool makes many of the Kenmore appliances and most of Sears' household vacume cleaners.

Don't loose sleep over it!

John

 

[Mike_dup1]

It has not stopped me from installing an Amsoil TS123 on my new 2004 GMC SLT E. Cab Z71. The new filters are low in residual oil and I don't see a problem with it.

I would not let this stop me from using one BUT if you are overly concerned, then stick with the OEM parts and have the dealer do all the service that way you are safe. But fair warning, anything that does not look like it should is going to come under criticism from many dealer staff. They don't like it when you don't spend your money in their shop and will often try to intimidate consumers into using what they sell. Reminds me of my Honda dealer years back. I purchased a new MC, they really harped on me when I picked it up that I must have it serviced at so many miles. That I should not use any oil and filters but Honda oil. So I though, may as well have them do it. Well I made an appointment when it came time. As the tech was starting to work on the bike, I was on my way to the showroom and noticed the 55 gal drums of Mobil oil in the corner of shop. So I watched from the showroom and sure enough thats where the oil came from. So I asked them why they told me I must use Honda oil when they don't even use it. All I got was a blank stare. The tech said, the Honda oil costs to much and any oil is OK. That was the last time they ever saw me again. From that point on I used my own brand of oil. A long time friend is now in the ATV/Snow-Mobile/Boat business selling several brands . He says Honda is one SOB of a company (the worst he has to deal with), they just pressure them to stock and sell Honda parts. In order to assure adequate supply of Honda ATV's etc he has to buy and sell a certain amount of Honda parts etc. I know all the companies do this to some extent, in order for a Chevy dealer to sell Corvette's, they must maintain a inventory of Corvette parts, tools and certified techs. Then Joe Blow comes in off the street and gripes when the dealer is trying to make a $$.

The problem is with the owner who over-uses the oil to re-oil it. I see that some over-clean them also, they think it should be 100% perfectly clean 100% of the time.

[ April 13, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

>>>For example, Sears PUT Whirlpool in business decades ago to create a reliable supplier for Kenmore products. To this day Whirlpool makes many of the Kenmore appliances and most of Sears' household vacume cleaners.

Point of order---
I think you might dig back and find that the Upton company was making washing machines for a while before becoming Whirlpool.

 

[Mike_dup1]

Here's a service tip from GM service, its only a matter of time before they do the same thing with these performace air filters.

quote:

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Owners of some 2003 Hummer H2s may experience lack or power, transmission will not upshift, or an erratic shift or stumble.

TIP: Check for an aftermarket air cleaner installed on the vehicle.

Some aftermarket air cleaners pull air directly from the underhood area of the vehicle at a higher temperature than the OEM airbox. The increase in temperature can cause erroneous readings from the MAF sensor, causing the above concerns. If an aftermarket air cleaner is discovered, reinstall the OEM equipment and re-evaluate.

Follow all SI related diagnostics if an OEM air cleaner box is installed and the vehicle still exhibits these conditions.

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[Chris 2421]

The ban on 10w40 by GM wasn't due to stuck rings..it was camshafts wearing at a high rate and they(GM) said that it was better to use 10w30 as it would get to the cam/lifters faster.

The 10w40 of the 70's was /is good oil,I never had any problem with it,and we used it in the race cars too.

 

[Fred82]

TRD is selling what appear to be rebadged K & N air filters for many of their vehicles thru Toyota dealerships.

 

[TheTanSedan]

We, too, had little or no problem with 10W-40 in several small and big block engines. As to the number spread, the 1974 V8-472 and the 1976 V8-500 Cadillacs we had both got SHELL 10W-50. The second was kept for over eleven years, pulling an 8000-lb trailer, and in daily service for nearly 200,000 miles. Second owner was still towing with it, engine untouched, at 240m (as I recall).

Chevrolet made cheap engines, both by design and by manufacture. And the V8-305 was the camshaft eater. You could find it in pretty much any 1982 or later mid or full-size GM.

I kept a 1977 Chev Impala 350-4V until 1994 or so, had 10W-40 all through first 120m miles when I got it. Oil consumption was a typical 750-miles/quart and had been since new.

 

[Islandvic]

Why can't GM just clean the MAF with QD Elect Contact Cleaner, slap on an AC DELCO filter, and reset the CEL and charge the customer $50?