GM OLM dead wrong

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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Gee, you could at least have sucked out a sample of the blackened slime and UOA-ed before you benevolently saved that car's life -- at your expense.

Not that I was ever prepared to check the "banned" box on the "member profile" screen (one of those double secret places only Admins get to go...
wink.gif
), but I do have to credit you with some begrudging extra respect (even for a syrup worshiper) given your willingness to try to save that poor engine on your own dime. . .
cheers3.gif



LOL. I'm sure you've had to fight yourself to keep from pressing that button.

The bad part is I was too broke to go out and buy cheap oil so I had to use the good stuff I had laying around. Who knows, a gallon or two of company gas may accidentally find it's way into the TL lol. Kidding.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Your error is in linking oil consumption with OCI. And it most definitely IS an error.

I don't think he's linking it. He's acknowledging that oil consumption happens regardless of OCI, but his point is that on a typical car, you wouldn't be dangerously below "min" level within 3K miles. And if you get your oil changed every 3K, then you don't care about this level of consumption - you get fresh oil to the "max" at that point anyway. So technically, you could get away with not checking your oil level (I still don't condone it, personally).

But now, if your OCI becomes 8-10K, and you still don't check the level in between, it becomes an issue, because during that time the engine may have consumed 1.5 quarts (as opposed to 0.5 quarts during 3K OCI). If you only have a 4qt sump, that means you're missing almost 40% of your oil.


QP:

I respectfully disagree. The reason I think he is linking the two is this: he is declaring the GM-OLM to be flawed because it calculates/allows OCIs that are sufficiently long that in some cars, consumption or leakage, (or both) might become dangerous.

I know that there are such folks out there (and I'm not saying the OP is one of them), but I simply can't imagine leaving my oil unchecked long enough for ANY "oil loss factor" (consumption, leakage, whatever...) to bring the level down to a critical level. My wife rolls her eyes as I usually end up checking oil on BOTH Saturday AND Sunday...

The OP is complaining that the OLM allows OCIs so long that the oil level may drop dangerously. All of us old BITOG hands have seen the postings in the UOA section that show that the OLM's calculations are sensible and conservative. Oil loss is a totally different factor, not the OLM's fault, and DEFINITELY something the owner/maintainer should stay ahead of, irrespective of what the OLM says.
cheers3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Junior

I get tired of everyone trying to blame someone else for their problems rather than taking responsibility for their actions. If you choose to not check the oil and it runs low causing engine damage you are on your own.


Great summation!
 
Originally Posted By: cmhj
Originally Posted By: Junior

I get tired of everyone trying to blame someone else for their problems rather than taking responsibility for their actions. If you choose to not check the oil and it runs low causing engine damage you are on your own.


Great summation!


I say so! Years ago they preached checking oil each time you gas up the car, I think that is still the rule of thumb. I usually check it every 500 miles. On something that has no history of oil use that could be extended. There is no reason in the world any well maintained car should need more than 1 qt of oil at any given time, unless some unforeseen event occurs. I top mine up if its down 1/2 qt.
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
. . .
The bad part is I was too broke to go out and buy cheap oil so I had to use the good stuff I had laying around. . . .


Ooooooo, that is bad. I'd recommend professional help, but let's face it, there isn't any Sigmund Freud wanna-be out there who understands the sorts of compulsions which drive folks like us.

EDIT: And besides, sometimes I just enjoy being a
ButtHead.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
QP:

I respectfully disagree. The reason I think he is linking the two is this: he is declaring the GM-OLM to be flawed because it calculates/allows OCIs that are sufficiently long that in some cars, consumption or leakage, (or both) might become dangerous.

Well, in that case I agree with you. Initially, I thought you were saying that he was claiming that longer OCIs cause more oil consumption (more than proportional to the miles driven).

Quote:

The OP is complaining that the OLM allows OCIs so long that the oil level may drop dangerously. All of us old BITOG hands have seen the postings in the UOA section that show that the OLM's calculations are sensible and conservative. Oil loss is a totally different factor, not the OLM's fault, and DEFINITELY something the owner/maintainer should stay ahead of, irrespective of what the OLM says.
cheers3.gif


I think we're on the same page here.
55.gif
 
The title of this thread,"GM OLM dead wrong", is dead wrong. You know, back when Mobil first put out Mobil One, it was said to be good for 25,000 miles or one year. This was back in the 70's. I began to use it myself back then. Anyway, within a few years, they were forced to drop this claim because negligent people were trying to run the whole 25,000 miles without checking their oil level and were ruining their engines when they ran out of oil.

I did the one year OCI from the 70's to 2001, when I retired. My usual OCI on my commuter car was 18,000 to 20,000 miles. I usually had to add two or three quarts, at least. Never had a sludged engine or anything but a quiet, smooth running engine with 140,000 miles, which was about as long as I ever kept a car.

I once had a 91 Ford Taurus which burned a quart of oil every 2,000 miles until the 20,000 mile mark, at which time it finally became broke in and began consuming a quart every 4 or 5 thousand miles. Every new car I ever had used at least half a quart in the first 2,000 miles.

I have just last year gone back to using synthetic oil again, going for the one year OCI. I am using M1 High Mileage oil, 10W30. I have a 2005 Nissan Pathfinder, and the present OC just passed the 7,000 mile mark. It appears to have used about one third of a quart in 7,000 miles. I don't think I will have to add any oil, as I expect the year will be up at about 10,000 miles and it should be about a half quart low by then.
 
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
. . .
Years ago they preached checking oil each time you gas up the car, I think that is still the rule of thumb. I usually check it every 500 miles. On something that has no history of oil use that could be extended. . . .


Yes! It may be overkill, but if you log just one "save" in a lifetime (or maybe even five or ten years), then all the "extra" oil checking will have been worth it.

In my Camry hybrid, every fillup or 500 miles is about the same thing. Except during the hurricane season, when as a rule, I never let a car go below one-half of a tank. And I still like to check every time. I actually worry about wearing out the hood release mechanism. But hey, I'd rather pay to fix that the pay to get a new engine.

Hey, beat the heck out of your hood release and dipstick -- they're far cheaper than a new engine.
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
ADFD1 said:
Hey, beat the heck out of your hood release and dipstick -- they're far cheaper than a new engine.


Now that's thinking with your dipstick!
Click to expand...
 
"Hey, beat the heck out of your hood release and dipstick -- they're far cheaper than a new engine."

Well, if you're not using it to whip people, it will probably last a decent amount of time....
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Your error is in linking oil consumption with OCI. And it most definitely IS an error.

I don't think he's linking it. He's acknowledging that oil consumption happens regardless of OCI, but his point is that on a typical car, you wouldn't be dangerously below "min" level within 3K miles. And if you get your oil changed every 3K, then you don't care about this level of consumption - you get fresh oil to the "max" at that point anyway. So technically, you could get away with not checking your oil level (I still don't condone it, personally).

But now, if your OCI becomes 8-10K, and you still don't check the level in between, it becomes an issue, because during that time the engine may have consumed 1.5 quarts (as opposed to 0.5 quarts during 3K OCI). If you only have a 4qt sump, that means you're missing almost 40% of your oil.


Thanks for helping me out...you are in fact correct and he is incorrect to think that I (I BITOG member) would dare link OLM with Oil consumption :)

I realize that most cars use some oil between changes. There is nothing worng with this engine...it is just that as you said above, 9k is an insane long interval on dino when compared to 3-5k (which is what my g/f was used to). I again agree wioth you all and I check my oil, but I am defending her honor and seeing her point that she wants to buy a car and follow the recommended mainteance interval without having to raise the hood every fill-up! At a 3-5k interval that is fine on a good-conditioned car, but 9k it is not fine IMHOP so I side with her on that one (even though she knows nothing of oil LOL)
 
Originally Posted By: Junior
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Junior
Originally Posted By: 360kid
Originally Posted By: AlanRebod

Which is entirely unscientific. You have provided no evidence that the oil was actually "spent".


I didn't realize I was in court. I have no need to provide evidence to anyone. If I look at oil and it's blacker than sin, smells burnt, and it hasn't been changed in 7,000 miles and it's conventional oil. Yeah, I'm going to change it. If you wouldn't, then that's you. And if you wouldn't change it, then I thank god you're not in charge of the maintenance on my vehicles. I think some people would agree with me there.


You have to expect a lot of push back when you post a subject with a title such as yours. By all means, change the oil whenever you want. But, throughout the entire 4 pages I have yet to see any evidence that the OLM is wrong. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of UOA that seem to indicate the OLM works just fine. I do not believe using an old past a certain number of miles is going to cause consumption to dramatically increase. What is wrong with adding a quart at 5000 miles and going on with life? And finally, color is not a indication of oil life. A hard working diesel engine will turn the oil black in a few hours after a change.

On a personal application, I had a UOA at 11,000 miles that indicated the oil had been in use too long. That sample didn't look smell or feel any different than a sample that had been run 7500 miles. At no point in that long interval did that engine start using oil. And it still does not today even after pushing a change interval too long. What it did do is tell me that with my type of duty cycle I need to keep my intervals between 7500 and about 9000 miles. Which I have done.


Junior has it right. Look at the UOA posted here with DINO oil and an OLM. Like I said, they are pretty accurate at calculating when conventional oil is 100% used up.



I have no doubt that in some cases dino can last a long time...but that is not the issue...the issue is that when the OLM recommends 9k on dino and you have an average person who doesn't check their oil (shouldn't have to on a newer car), then they are running the risk of running way low on oil due to such a long OCI due to GM & their stupid OLM.

AND BY THE WAY, JUNIOR, you are chastising the wrong person...360kid is not the OP LOL


Oops, I quoted the wrong guy.

Your argument is illogical. It makes no sense to purchase something like a car and then be too lazy to spend the five minutes per week it takes to check the oil, coolant, transmission, power steering, brakes and tire pressure. Every operator manual I have ever read explains how to do those things at approximately a 6th grade level. For those who are too lazy to do that (or are unable) at least have someone do it for you.

While I agree that it would be nice if every engine ever made didn't use oil, I disagree that this expectation excludes an owner from basic vehicle checks to ensure proper vehicle function and personal safety. (not to mention the safety of other drivers when neglected vehicles break down on the road) A quart every 5000 miles is far from excessive consumption.

I get tired of everyone trying to blame someone else for their problems rather than taking responsibility for their actions. If you choose to not check the oil and it runs low causing engine damage you are on your own.


I DO ALL THISE THINGS..in fact my cars in in execllnt condition...but the avg soccer mom who doesn't know as much about cars as us has to trust others to care for their car. She took he camary in every 3k to the quick lube...the OLM is something totally new to her and she doesn't like that the OLM now means she has to riase the hood on a regular basis when she is a single mom of 2 and works full-time and know nothing of cars. IF GM did not allow the OLM to go so long, then this would not be an issue...
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Your error is in linking oil consumption with OCI. And it most definitely IS an error.

I don't think he's linking it. He's acknowledging that oil consumption happens regardless of OCI, but his point is that on a typical car, you wouldn't be dangerously below "min" level within 3K miles. And if you get your oil changed every 3K, then you don't care about this level of consumption - you get fresh oil to the "max" at that point anyway. So technically, you could get away with not checking your oil level (I still don't condone it, personally).

But now, if your OCI becomes 8-10K, and you still don't check the level in between, it becomes an issue, because during that time the engine may have consumed 1.5 quarts (as opposed to 0.5 quarts during 3K OCI). If you only have a 4qt sump, that means you're missing almost 40% of your oil.


QP:

I respectfully disagree. The reason I think he is linking the two is this: he is declaring the GM-OLM to be flawed because it calculates/allows OCIs that are sufficiently long that in some cars, consumption or leakage, (or both) might become dangerous.

I know that there are such folks out there (and I'm not saying the OP is one of them), but I simply can't imagine leaving my oil unchecked long enough for ANY "oil loss factor" (consumption, leakage, whatever...) to bring the level down to a critical level. My wife rolls her eyes as I usually end up checking oil on BOTH Saturday AND Sunday...

The OP is complaining that the OLM allows OCIs so long that the oil level may drop dangerously. All of us old BITOG hands have seen the postings in the UOA section that show that the OLM's calculations are sensible and conservative. Oil loss is a totally different factor, not the OLM's fault, and DEFINITELY something the owner/maintainer should stay ahead of, irrespective of what the OLM says.
cheers3.gif



Very well said...I still disagree but you have re-phrased in a more meaningful manner and I see your point too. BUT GM should have accounted for this; they know some cares use oil regardless of the fact they are newer. If designing the OLM knowing that some could go over 10k on dino, they should have done something to counteract owner ignornance after 30+_ years of the 3k/3month OCI from Jiffy Lube LOL
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
. . .
Years ago they preached checking oil each time you gas up the car, I think that is still the rule of thumb. I usually check it every 500 miles. On something that has no history of oil use that could be extended. . . .


Yes! It may be overkill, but if you log just one "save" in a lifetime (or maybe even five or ten years), then all the "extra" oil checking will have been worth it.

In my Camry hybrid, every fillup or 500 miles is about the same thing. Except during the hurricane season, when as a rule, I never let a car go below one-half of a tank. And I still like to check every time. I actually worry about wearing out the hood release mechanism. But hey, I'd rather pay to fix that the pay to get a new engine.

Hey, beat the heck out of your hood release and dipstick -- they're far cheaper than a new engine.



Well at least it is coming out that other people's cars use some oil...I have wondered how "you people" LOL can go such long OCI??? I get mad that one of my Jeeps uses maybe a qt every 3k (180k on the ticker; now I do not feel so bad knowing others have to add oil. But still...are there any out there or is it realistic to say a car can go 9k on dino without using any...I know some claim that????

I check my oil maybe once a month on my 2 Jeep Grands, but my mom, dad, g/f, etc. don't do it...they tkae them in when they are due, or check it if they are going out of town...THAT IS IT.

I am not saying it is right...I agree with many of you guys who are debating me...but I am taking off my BITOG hat and looking at it from the g/f point of view; that's all.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
Originally Posted By: Junior
Originally Posted By: FastSUV
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Junior
Originally Posted By: 360kid
Originally Posted By: AlanRebod

Which is entirely unscientific. You have provided no evidence that the oil was actually "spent".


I didn't realize I was in court. I have no need to provide evidence to anyone. If I look at oil and it's blacker than sin, smells burnt, and it hasn't been changed in 7,000 miles and it's conventional oil. Yeah, I'm going to change it. If you wouldn't, then that's you. And if you wouldn't change it, then I thank god you're not in charge of the maintenance on my vehicles. I think some people would agree with me there.


You have to expect a lot of push back when you post a subject with a title such as yours. By all means, change the oil whenever you want. But, throughout the entire 4 pages I have yet to see any evidence that the OLM is wrong. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of UOA that seem to indicate the OLM works just fine. I do not believe using an old past a certain number of miles is going to cause consumption to dramatically increase. What is wrong with adding a quart at 5000 miles and going on with life? And finally, color is not a indication of oil life. A hard working diesel engine will turn the oil black in a few hours after a change.

On a personal application, I had a UOA at 11,000 miles that indicated the oil had been in use too long. That sample didn't look smell or feel any different than a sample that had been run 7500 miles. At no point in that long interval did that engine start using oil. And it still does not today even after pushing a change interval too long. What it did do is tell me that with my type of duty cycle I need to keep my intervals between 7500 and about 9000 miles. Which I have done.


Junior has it right. Look at the UOA posted here with DINO oil and an OLM. Like I said, they are pretty accurate at calculating when conventional oil is 100% used up.



I have no doubt that in some cases dino can last a long time...but that is not the issue...the issue is that when the OLM recommends 9k on dino and you have an average person who doesn't check their oil (shouldn't have to on a newer car), then they are running the risk of running way low on oil due to such a long OCI due to GM & their stupid OLM.

AND BY THE WAY, JUNIOR, you are chastising the wrong person...360kid is not the OP LOL


Oops, I quoted the wrong guy.

Your argument is illogical. It makes no sense to purchase something like a car and then be too lazy to spend the five minutes per week it takes to check the oil, coolant, transmission, power steering, brakes and tire pressure. Every operator manual I have ever read explains how to do those things at approximately a 6th grade level. For those who are too lazy to do that (or are unable) at least have someone do it for you.

While I agree that it would be nice if every engine ever made didn't use oil, I disagree that this expectation excludes an owner from basic vehicle checks to ensure proper vehicle function and personal safety. (not to mention the safety of other drivers when neglected vehicles break down on the road) A quart every 5000 miles is far from excessive consumption.

I get tired of everyone trying to blame someone else for their problems rather than taking responsibility for their actions. If you choose to not check the oil and it runs low causing engine damage you are on your own.


I DO ALL THISE THINGS..in fact my cars in in execllnt condition...but the avg soccer mom who doesn't know as much about cars as us has to trust others to care for their car. She took he camary in every 3k to the quick lube...the OLM is something totally new to her and she doesn't like that the OLM now means she has to riase the hood on a regular basis when she is a single mom of 2 and works full-time and know nothing of cars. IF GM did not allow the OLM to go so long, then this would not be an issue...


What does this have to do with an OLM? No one recomends 3 month/3K mile intervals anymore. Honda is 10,000 miles or 20,000 miles. I believe both Ford and Toyota are 5,000 miles as is most other manufacturers.

If someone isn't smart enough to be able to pull the dipstick at least ONCE during an oil change interval, that is their problem, as oil level checks are stipulated right in the owners manual.
 
I understand where you are coming from. At what point in a relationship do you start doing what I do for my wife (everything). as far as tire pressure and maintenance and oil checks I am the only one who does this. SHe just finished a 5k mile round trip and I was anxious to check her oil when she got home yesterday, knowing it had not been done with a lot of high speed crosscountry driving. I was relieved to see the Exlporere did not consume any oil as far as the dipstick is concerned. I am lucky..
 
Poster: FastSUV
Subject: Re: GM OLM dead wrong

I DO ALL THISE THINGS..in fact my cars in in execllnt condition...but the avg soccer mom who doesn't know as much about cars as us has to trust others to care for their car. She took he camary in every 3k to the quick lube...the OLM is something totally new to her and she doesn't like that the OLM now means she has to riase the hood on a regular basis when she is a single mom of 2 and works full-time and know nothing of cars. IF GM did not allow the OLM to go so long, then this would not be an issue...

----------------------------------------
10 minutes for you to teach her. 5 minutes a week after that. Or, you just check it for her. Either way problem solved.

By the way, I'm mildly offended by the single mother stereotype. Rather than coming on here hating the OLM, maybe it would be a better idea to teach her the basics about cars and the consequences of not checking the oil, tire pressure, etc.
 
Originally Posted By: Junior
Poster: FastSUV
Subject: Re: GM OLM dead wrong

I DO ALL THISE THINGS..in fact my cars in in execllnt condition...but the avg soccer mom who doesn't know as much about cars as us has to trust others to care for their car. She took he camary in every 3k to the quick lube...the OLM is something totally new to her and she doesn't like that the OLM now means she has to riase the hood on a regular basis when she is a single mom of 2 and works full-time and know nothing of cars. IF GM did not allow the OLM to go so long, then this would not be an issue...

----------------------------------------
10 minutes for you to teach her. 5 minutes a week after that. Or, you just check it for her. Either way problem solved.

By the way, I'm mildly offended by the single mother stereotype. Rather than coming on here hating the OLM, maybe it would be a better idea to teach her the basics about cars and the consequences of not checking the oil, tire pressure, etc.


So am I. Considering that we have at least one single mom that I know of here. (Aspen 7).

I have to wonder just why would having an OLM mean that one has to raise the hood on a regular basis. Just how did those millions and millions of cars and their owners since 1903 manage without one?

One can still take the car to a quick lube every 3k miles, OLM or not.
 
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