GM expects to pioneer a new “groundbreaking” EV battery technology

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

The fires were just one aspect, the leaks and absolute state of things in South Korea since those earlier articles you linked were published I think just underscores how challenging hydrogen is to supply at any sort of scale, and work with (hence the leaks, it REALLY wants to leak). There has been a lot of hopium spread by the industry and government (who has been subsidizing it) over the last 5+ years, but we are seeing the results of some of these experiments now in SK.

I don't think it's all bad. And I'm interested to see where things go with the forklifts for example, but with Shell shutting down all their hydrogen filling stations, it does really seem to be a dead man walking for transportation, while we continue to see EV chargers installed and new models of EV hit the market.

Lots of challenges to move the world away from ICE. I truly believe it can and will happen ONE day yet I do not think in most of us older guys life times. So much R&D needed still. I really wish the powers that be in North American would have used their heads and went to the hybrid route at the very start of all the "new clean" energy movement. The hybrids would have been better accepted by the general public and led to trust in new energy / transportation modes. Likely would be much cheaper for lot of the population as opposed to the high costs of the straight EVs on the market these days.

A straight jump from traditional ICE vehicles to the EVs is a major shift and great challenge to those "not rich" folks all over , especially city folks , many who live in great big apartment complexes. Not only the initial high cost of the EV , then comes the .... where do they park all of them? Word is they are much too heavy for many of them to be in elevated parking garages (is this true?). Then ... the where can I charge my EV in my apartment complex?

A local fellow who owns and runs his own electrical company (commercial-industrial-residential) in my area was here last week doing some work at the house. We got into talk about the EVs and the charging systems at homes etc... He tells me it is advancing and getting better and cheaper all the time. He says he has been doing some residential EV charging set ups at homes and says the cost is way down these days compared to just a few years ago.

 

[alarmguy]

There’s no reason to move away from ice

 

[JeffKeryk]

There’s no reason to move away from ice

versus

 

[GrumpyCat]

I'll be happier when batteries are designed to be rebuildable rather than hearing about new chemistries.

That is like asking for tires to be rebuildable.
Or for motor oil to last forever after being run through a special filter.

At some point a part simply has to be replaced with new. That refurbishing the old costs too much.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Putting a new module in a really old pack isnt going to bring up the pack.

You do not understand battery modules. Each is a standalone battery with attached BCM. Modern EV "batteries" are arrays of linked BCMs. Each BCM dynamically balances itself in the array.

 

[GrumpyCat]

All batteries have a battery management system and can accommodate and balance different cells and modules if they are within some range. I imagine putting a brand new module in an old pack will give performance of an old pack, not a new one.

Your imagination is working too hard.

Each battery module has it's own BCM.

 

[97prizm]

I'll be happier when batteries are designed to be rebuildable rather than hearing about new chemistries.

Or letting people keep their gas snd diesel engines as well. There are a few small companies that do battery pack rebuilds but it's few and far between.

 

[alarmguy]

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versus
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Excellent post however those prices are the voters choice. In the land of the free, you would be hard pressed to find gasoline over three dollars a gallon in coastal Carolinas

 

[UncleDave]

You do not understand battery modules. Each is a standalone battery with attached BCM. Modern EV "batteries" are arrays of linked BCMs. Each BCM dynamically balances itself in the array.

Im certainly am not intimately familiar with every battery architecture, but I'll stand by my statement that replacing a new module into an old pack will not bring up the pack.

If you started with 10 modules @ 30% degradation, then a module dies, replacing a lone module wont erase that degradation.

 

[UncleDave]

From my understanding or perhaps misunderstanding of EV batteries Ev charging and discharging (along with other parameters like heat etcetera) is inherently limited by the ability to keep the voltage between cells close as possible.

When the voltage between cells reaches a certain variation either charging or discharging slows or stops other wise the high cell will cook or the slow cell over discharge damaging it.

A BMC although dynamic in nature cannot force an old cell to take on the charge /discharge profile of the newer one. It can make sure its module falls in the window of the pack.

This is cell voltage discrepancy and each manufacturers degree of control over it is demonstrated quite elegantly by Bjorn Nyland who connects monitoring apps through the cars OBD port and watches each charging session in his reviews.

Totally willing to be schooled where I have it wrong everyday all day.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Excellent post however those prices are the voters choice. In the land of the free, you would be hard pressed to find gasoline over three dollars a gallon in coastal Carolinas

Yes, Silicon Valley can be expensive; there is a reason for it. You wanna get rich? Come where the opportunity is. Even a Bozo like me can make it.
I am willing to bet my energy costs, all in, are far lower than yours. I would guess the cost to run my house is $30 to $40 max on average. And that includes fueling the Tesla. Here's my next Pacific Gas and Electricity bill... This is actually for 2 properties; my main home is -$99. The rest is for a condo I just bought.

All good AG.

 

[ME_Andy]

If GM keeps the sales growth up for another 2 years, they could pass Tesla. The wild card is tariffs on Mexico.

 

[Torrid]

There’s no reason to move away from ice

Exactly. EV should just be another option.

 

[jkhawaii]

Which will still hold less energy than a plastic container with liquid fuel.

 

[Indyxc]

Im curious to see how easy this is.

It seems like a great idea.

Im wondering what the effect is of swapping a new pack into an old tray.
It would seem the new pack would be forced into the existing degraded packs voltage profiles.

Maybe thats ok if you at the stage of replacing a pack?

I work for GM, previously on engines, battery packs/modules and now cell.

If you drop the current Ultium battery packs you can unseal the cover (urethane), unbolt it, and then unbolt, and remove the modules. I have personally done it. As noted the Celestiq, while it uses the same cells, it has unique modules.

LMR is promising, and GM / LGES progress is real. GM outside of Tesla is the only company in the NA with real battery capacity. LGES and Stellantis just launched, Honda / LGES under construction, LGES / Hyundia, same, Ford SK/CATL, whoever 3 stalled plants.

 

[UncleDave]

I work for GM, previously on engines, battery packs/modules and now cell.

If you drop the current Ultium battery packs you can unseal the cover (urethane), unbolt it, and then unbolt, and remove the modules. I have personally done it. As noted the Celestiq, while it uses the same cells, it has unique modules.

LMR is promising, and GM / LGES progress is real. GM outside of Tesla is the only company in the NA with real battery capacity. LGES and Stellantis just launched, Honda / LGES under construction, LGES / Hyundia, same, Ford SK/CATL, whoever 3 stalled plants.

Whats book time on a job like that?

It always seemed Panasonic and Samsung would make the capacity list, but could be under license to other guys.

Cool to hear about progress especially from GM.

I dont excited about whats in anyones lab anymore because its never clear how its going to translate to a given car a what the tradeoffs are.

I hope you have continuing good news and continue to update us.

 

[GrumpyCat]

From my understanding or perhaps misunderstanding of EV batteries Ev charging and discharging (along with other parameters like heat etcetera) is inherently limited by the ability to keep the voltage between cells close as possible.

When the voltage between cells reaches a certain variation either charging or discharging slows or stops other wise the high cell will cook or the slow cell over discharge damaging it.

A BMC although dynamic in nature cannot force an old cell to take on the charge /discharge profile of the newer one. It can make sure its module falls in the window of the pack.

This is cell voltage discrepancy and each manufacturers degree of control over it is demonstrated quite elegantly by Bjorn Nyland who connects monitoring apps through the cars OBD port and watches each charging session in his reviews.

Totally willing to be schooled where I have it wrong everyday all day.

Depending on the manufacturer of the battery module and battery module BCM, the module has the ability to isolate bad cells within. A Tesla Model S with (7100) 18650 cells doesn't stop at the side of the road if one cell goes bad.

Isn't just a matter of voltage between cells. Voltage is just one indicator. Internal resistances need to be close so that when charging cells in series the voltage drop across each cell is close, so that each cell charges similarly and discharges similarly.

Couple decades ago "smart money" knew EVs required big cells to make big batteries. Then upstart Tesla created their Roadster using thousands of 18650 cells commonly used in laptop batteries. Today, Tesla's solution dominates although Tesla is using a bit larger cells these days.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Yes, Silicon Valley can be expensive; there is a reason for it. You wanna get rich? Come where the opportunity is. Even a Bozo like me can make it.
I am willing to bet my energy costs, all in, are far lower than yours. I would guess the cost to run my house is $30 to $40 max on average. And that includes fueling the Tesla. Here's my next Pacific Gas and Electricity bill... This is actually for 2 properties; my main home is -$99. The rest is for a condo I just bought.

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All good AG.

It would appear you got in under the original "Net Metering" scheme where the utility pays you the same for a kWh your PV system puts on the grid as a kWh you take off the grid. This is why your electric utility is going bankrupt. They get nothing for providing you a marketplace for your excess power, get nothing for providing the wires, get nothing for providing the billing, and they have to eat the losses between your house and where the power is ultimately sold.

Today the Federal grid tie law only requires the utility to pay their audited cost of generation. Only has to pay what is saved by not generating your kWh. For TVA this is about $0.025/kWh. About 1.5¢ for generation, 1¢ for "fuel surcharge".

 

[alarmguy]

Yes, Silicon Valley can be expensive; there is a reason for it. You wanna get rich? Come where the opportunity is. Even a Bozo like me can make it.
I am willing to bet my energy costs, all in, are far lower than yours. I would guess the cost to run my house is $30 to $40 max on average. And that includes fueling the Tesla. Here's my next Pacific Gas and Electricity bill... This is actually for 2 properties; my main home is -$99. The rest is for a condo I just bought.

View attachment 280185

All good AG.

You are posting what you pay, however you cant get that deal in California anymore.
You brought up the gas prices in CA I explained a reason.

We (for us) live a much better life here in the coastal area of the Carolina's. I dont have to make any concessions to lower energy costs any more then they area because they are so low. They are a non-issue EXCEPT being a hobby it can be fun as I do these things for not only energy. I mean, a man has to have interests and passion for things in life right? The energy costs here haven't even kept up with inflation for the last 50 years, either have taxes.

Yes, all good! We all live a good life in our respective places and that is a good thing. Life is too short to settle for less.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It would appear you got in under the original "Net Metering" scheme where the utility pays you the same for a kWh your PV system puts on the grid as a kWh you take off the grid. This is why your electric utility is going bankrupt. They get nothing for providing you a marketplace for your excess power, get nothing for providing the wires, get nothing for providing the billing, and they have to eat the losses between your house and where the power is ultimately sold.

Today the Federal grid tie law only requires the utility to pay their audited cost of generation. Only has to pay what is saved by not generating your kWh. For TVA this is about $0.025/kWh. About 1.5¢ for generation, 1¢ for "fuel surcharge".

I'm under NEM2; I get low retail for excess generation. PG&E gets the benefit of my generation without additional investment.
PG&E is profitable, they are not going bankrupt.