GM expects to pioneer a new “groundbreaking” EV battery technology

zzyzzx said:
Unless there are numerous aftermarket alternatives, like there are for normal ICE 12V car batteries, then this really isn't helpful all that much. We non non-proprietary fixes that won't be discontinued.
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I get that, but it isn't my issue as stuff like computers and specific pieces are almost always OEM only.

My issue is whether it's going to be worth doing at all even if you can do it.

Putting a new module in a really old pack isnt going to bring up the pack.

These batteries are getting into the hundreds K of life in the field and quite robust.

at X degradation you might as well just reline the whole pack or buy a new battery.

This feels like it's going to be largely unused modularity, but we still dont know any metrics around it as we do others in the space.
 
UncleDave said:
I get that, but it isn't my issue as stuff like computers and specific pieces are almost always OEM only.

My issue is whether it's going to be worth doing at all even if you can do it.

Putting a new module in a really old pack isnt going to bring up the pack.

These batteries are getting into the hundreds K of life in the field and quite robust.

at X degradation you might as well just reline the whole pack or buy a new battery.

This feels like it's going to be largely unused modularity, but we still dont know any metrics around it as we do others in the space.
Click to expand...

All batteries have a battery management system and can accommodate and balance different cells and modules if they are within some range. I imagine putting a brand new module in an old pack will give performance of an old pack, not a new one. But the real question is what kind of software locks there will be and how well people will be able to hack them. Currently I can't even replace my radio without a dealer-specific tool and software. We can only replace 12V batteries ourselves because that system became standard before there was software. The big auto companies don't make that mistake anymore. Unless we get some kind of right-to-repair law or much more competition in the marketplace we can't count on repairability, regardless of the technicals.
 
I have long wished they would go for all sorts of other / new technology around transportation. Like the use of hydrogen that Toyota is still working to get to possible mainstream use. There are others as well trying it.
 
SammyChevelleTypeS3 said:
I have long wished they would go for all sorts of other / new technology around transportation. Like the use of hydrogen that Toyota is still working to get to possible mainstream use. There are others as well trying it.
Click to expand...
Hydrogen's biggest issue is containment which makes it much more complicated than a gas station or vehicle charging. I think hydrogen for fleet use is a possibility. It seems so unnecessary for civilian use because of the down time our vehicles typically have. That's why charging isn't an issue for most. I think hydrogen is a great option for railroading since engines don't get much down time, but for that matter we should just do electrified rail. We had it more than 50 years ago in some areas, but it's nearly nonexistent these days for freight. The problem for the railroad using hydrogen is that they'd have to invest in the infrastructure to fuel it. We don't even have diesel tanks on property. They pay a company to bring fuel directly to the engines by truck.
 
Torrid said:
Hydrogen's biggest issue is containment which makes it much more complicated than a gas station or vehicle charging. I think hydrogen for fleet use is a possibility. ..
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Yes, for sure, as far as companies like Amazon, Walmart and mentioned here Home Depot.
Only time will tell if the trend continues. Some interesting links, easy short read. Some go back a couple years, unsure if they are on schedule EX. Amazon for 2025 Keep in mind this is local, you can find more in some overseas areas. My thoughts are it seems plausible for large scale operations where storage is more easy at central operations of commercial type usage.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2024/02/01/2821845/9619/en/index.html

https://hydrogen-central.com/plug-p...-amazon-and-home-depot-sites/#google_vignette

Amazons plan -
"Amazon says the new green hydrogen supply could provide enough annual power for 30,000 forklifts or 800 heavy-duty trucks used in long-haul transportation."
https://www.energytech.com/energy-e...rly-11k-tons-of-green-hydrogen-beginning-2025

Enter South Korea
https://insideevs.com/news/582164/power-plug-hydrogen-deal-walmart-20-tons/
" last year it entered a $1.6-billion joint venture deal with South Korea’s SK Group to provide its ProGen fuel cell technology to power city buses in the country. The first ones are scheduled to enter service by the middle of 2023."
 
alarmguy said:
Yes, for sure, as far as companies like Amazon, Walmart and mentioned here Home Depot.
Only time will tell if the trend continues. Some interesting links, easy short read. Some go back a couple years, unsure if they are on schedule EX. Amazon for 2025 Keep in mind this is local, you can find more in some overseas areas. My thoughts are it seems plausible for large scale operations where storage is more easy at central operations of commercial type usage.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2024/02/01/2821845/9619/en/index.html

https://hydrogen-central.com/plug-p...-amazon-and-home-depot-sites/#google_vignette

Amazons plan -
"Amazon says the new green hydrogen supply could provide enough annual power for 30,000 forklifts or 800 heavy-duty trucks used in long-haul transportation."
https://www.energytech.com/energy-e...rly-11k-tons-of-green-hydrogen-beginning-2025

Enter South Korea
https://insideevs.com/news/582164/power-plug-hydrogen-deal-walmart-20-tons/
" last year it entered a $1.6-billion joint venture deal with South Korea’s SK Group to provide its ProGen fuel cell technology to power city buses in the country. The first ones are scheduled to enter service by the middle of 2023."
Click to expand...
1747407748304.webp

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-plug-power-stock-plummeted-224937228.html
Leading hydrogen fuel cell developer Plug Power (NASDAQ: PLUG) needed some juice on Thursday, as investors aggressively traded out of the company. They were largely reacting to news of a federal review of grants and other forms of support doled out to a range of energy companies, including Plug Power.

At the end of the day, Plug Power closed almost 11% lower in price. That was on a session when the benchmark S&P 500 (SNPINDEX: ^GSPC) managed to tick up by 0.4%.

*snip*

Plug Power is an obvious target in this effort, as it received billions of dollars in loan guarantees for its work with batteries. While it remains to be seen how this new initiative from the DoE plays out, it puts Plug Power and its green energy peers on a defensive footing, and drains resources from their core competencies. Investors should keep a sharp eye on how this situation develops.
https://cleantechnica.com/2025/01/1...-auction-failure-impeachment-may-cause-pivot/

On December 23, 2024, a hydrogen-powered bus exploded at a refueling station in Mokhaeng-dong, Chungju-si, Chungcheongbuk-do, South Korea. The incident occurred shortly after the bus had completed refueling and was starting its drive system, resulting in injuries to three individuals: a charging station employee, the bus driver, and another person present at the scene. All were hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries. A red warning light on the dashboard was the only indicator that something was wrong before the incident.

In the aftermath of the explosion, a previously unscheduled inspection of the 147 hydrogen buses operating in the country found that one in nine were leaking. Unsurprisingly, the vibration of normal use eased off the tightness of various bolts and seals, allowing the leaks, which are being characterized as small. I was unable to find any governmental reports on the degree of leakage, but would be unsurprised to find it was greater than 1% of hydrogen per day. Hydrogen is the Houdini of molecules. Keeping it inside of things requires precision engineering, high-technology seals, perfect assembly, and constant maintenance. Checking all of the things which might loosen and cause leaks will require partial disassembly of vehicles, adding to already high maintenance costs.

On December 27, 2024, a fire occurred at a hydrogen refueling station in Hoedong-dong, Busan, South Korea. The incident was initially reported as an explosion due to a loud noise and vibrations felt in nearby buildings. However, subsequent investigations clarified that the fire resulted from a hydrogen leak caused by the activation of a safety valve, not an explosion. The fire was extinguished within approximately 50 minutes, and no casualties were reported.


Hydrogen continues to present considerable challenges in real world application. Most of SK's filling stations are non-function (see above article), a huge portion of the Hyundai hydrogen cars were leaking, prompting a recall. Their hydrogen liquification facility is a non-operational boondoggle.

The above linked article sheds some considerable light on the issues faced when hydrogen is attempted to be used in place of fossil fuels. They also note that while they've not managed to actually get any hydrogen-powered ferries in operation, despite considerable investment, several battery-powered short-range ferries are now in service.

Batteries are definitely winning this fight right now, and it's not difficult to see why.
 
Owen Lucas said:
I'll be happier when batteries are designed to be rebuildable rather than hearing about new chemistries.
Click to expand...
This chemistry is cheaper than dirt supposedly with better energy density than lfp.

Why GM will bother with LFP at this point at all is anybody’s guess but supposedly it will only go into trucks

IMG_6657.webp
 
Sorry, just realized this thread is about EV batteries and not energy after posting. Don't know how to delete this but will stop using thread for hydrogen talk.

I would certainly not want any vehicle that needed on board hydrogen fuel tanks. YET:

I am interested in Hydrogen use for vehicles ever since I read that Germany was getting into a technology in vehicles in the 1930s that used a set up to use an electric charge to be put to water that created hydrogen thus needed no hydrogen fuel tanks or any refuel need.
I got the answer below while searching for the articles about the German trials with hydrogen.

Yes, there is technology to create hydrogen with water and electric charge in a vehicle. Electriq Global has developed a system that converts water into hydrogen fuel for cars, extracting hydrogen from water to generate electricity that powers the vehicle. This process involves splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen using an electrolyzer.

advanceh2.com+2
 
The best way to store and handle hydrogen is to react it with carbon so that it forms a stable liquid hydrocarbon, which can be pumped and kept in cheap storage tanks.

I jest, slightly, but the process of making synthetic hydrocarbons is getting efficient enough that it's starting to be used for energy storage. Instead of having banks of batteries, or pumping water uphill, or whatever, they use the excess grid power to electrolyze water into hydrogen, convert that to methane, and then to recover the energy, run a regular gas turbine. It's carbon neutral, and uses a lot of existing technology. From what I've heard the main barrier is that LFP batteries and soon, sodium-ion batteries are just too cheap now and are killing off alternatives.

It's worth noting that not all proposals for H2 automobility require hydrogen to be stored for long periods, pipelined, or transported. One of Toyota's schemes was to generate the H2 on-site at the fueling station using electricity. Then there's no need to truck around H2 in tanker trucks at least. Question is if this makes any sense in today's world, where you could just use that electricity to charge electric cars instead. If the hydrogen cars aren't cheaper, safer, have longer range or something else that makes them better than BEVs, what's the point? It made sense in the world where lead-acid and NiCd were state of the art battery technology.
 
SammyChevelleTypeS3 said:
Sorry, just realized this thread is about EV batteries and not energy after posting. Don't know how to delete this but will stop using thread for hydrogen talk.

I would certainly not want any vehicle that needed on board hydrogen fuel tanks. YET:

I am interested in Hydrogen use for vehicles ever since I read that Germany was getting into a technology in vehicles in the 1930s that used a set up to use an electric charge to be put to water that created hydrogen thus needed no hydrogen fuel tanks or any refuel need.
I got the answer below while searching for the articles about the German trials with hydrogen.

Yes, there is technology to create hydrogen with water and electric charge in a vehicle. Electriq Global has developed a system that converts water into hydrogen fuel for cars, extracting hydrogen from water to generate electricity that powers the vehicle. This process involves splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen using an electrolyzer.

advanceh2.com+2
Click to expand...
You may find the links here interesting.
My only point is hydrogen and use in a number of applications, but not personal transportation and largely commercial
Real worldsmall scale stuff forklifts at Amazon Home Depot, Walmart are already in operation and have been for some time

Post in thread 'GM expects to pioneer a new “groundbreaking” EV battery technology'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ing-ev-battery-technology.395526/post-7246319

https://www.supplychaindive.com/new...-fulfillment-center-hydrogen-forklift/594501/

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/plug-supplies-walmart-green-hydrogen-110000138.html

https://www.csofutures.com/news/why...electric-forklifts-for-hydrogen-fuel-cells-2/
2016
@SammyChevelleTypeS3 I just posted some more links. It’s easy to find. I’m really not trying to hammer a point but many people don’t understand that hydrogen vehicles are already in use by major companies with that said not in transportation. I find the subject interesting obviously.
 
Last edited:
LavaRand said:
…

It's worth noting that not all proposals for H2 automobility require hydrogen to be stored for long periods, pipelined, or transported. One of Toyota's schemes was to generate the H2 on-site at the fueling station using electricity. Then there's no need to truck around H2 in tanker trucks at least. Question is if this makes any sense in today's world, where you could just use that electricity to charge electric cars instead. If the hydrogen cars aren't cheaper, safer, have longer range or something else that makes them better than BEVs, what's the point? It made sense in the world where lead-acid and NiCd were state of the art battery technology.
Click to expand...
Amazon has started doing this for their forklifts.
Previously hydrogen was delivered
The newest fulfillment center produces hydrogen on site
I posted some links right above
 
OVERKILL said:
…

Batteries are definitely winning this fight right now, and it's not difficult to see why.
Click to expand...
much of my posts are simply bringing future possibilities and things to think about.
As far as the performance of a stock or company or fires on the other side of the world, we can say the same thing with lithium. Heck Tesla almost went belly up, technically was belly up, broke at one point.

However, hydrogen is in use in warehouses across this country thousands of forklifts. I don’t know what the future holds in 50 years, but maybe they will find a way to power automobiles versus in 50 years having an electric grid capable of distributing enough electricity to every house in the neighborhood.

I posted some links above regarding Home Depot, Amazon, and Walmart
Amazon now has its first fulfillment center with hydrogen that doesn’t have to be delivered. It’s produced on site at the fulfillment center.

I stress I am not implying. This is future transportation at least in this point in time.🙃
However, call me crazy, but we have had technological breakthroughs throughout mankind history so I think there is a possibility, but who knows
 
SammyChevelleTypeS3 said:
Sorry, just realized this thread is about EV batteries and not energy after posting. Don't know how to delete this but will stop using thread for hydrogen talk.

I would certainly not want any vehicle that needed on board hydrogen fuel tanks. YET:

I am interested in Hydrogen use for vehicles ever since I read that Germany was getting into a technology in vehicles in the 1930s that used a set up to use an electric charge to be put to water that created hydrogen thus needed no hydrogen fuel tanks or any refuel need.
I got the answer below while searching for the articles about the German trials with hydrogen.

Yes, there is technology to create hydrogen with water and electric charge in a vehicle. Electriq Global has developed a system that converts water into hydrogen fuel for cars, extracting hydrogen from water to generate electricity that powers the vehicle. This process involves splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen using an electrolyzer.

advanceh2.com+2
Click to expand...
Yes, electrolysis has been around forever. However, steam methane reformation (natural gas) is much cheaper and this is why something like 95% of hydrogen is produced that way .

When you are using electrolysis to produce the hydrogen, the electricity to run it has to come from somewhere. If that's fossil fuels, then you are actually producing more pollution than just using those fossil fuels directly.

And then, as I've noted in other threads on this subject, you have all the challenges with compression, transport, handling...etc. I highly recommend reading the article I linked earlier.
 
alarmguy said:
much of my posts are simply bringing future possibilities and things to think about.
As far as the performance of a stock or company or fires on the other side of the world, we can say the same thing with lithium. Heck Tesla almost went belly up, technically was belly up, broke at one point.

However, hydrogen is in use in warehouses across this country thousands of forklifts. I don’t know what the future holds in 50 years, but maybe they will find a way to power automobiles versus in 50 years having an electric grid capable of distributing enough electricity to every house in the neighborhood.

I posted some links above regarding Home Depot, Amazon, and Walmart
Amazon now has its first fulfillment center with hydrogen that doesn’t have to be delivered. It’s produced on site at the fulfillment center.

I stress I am not implying. This is future transportation at least in this point in time.🙃
However, call me crazy, but we have had technological breakthroughs throughout mankind history so I think there is a possibility, but who knows
Click to expand...
The fires were just one aspect, the leaks and absolute state of things in South Korea since those earlier articles you linked were published I think just underscores how challenging hydrogen is to supply at any sort of scale, and work with (hence the leaks, it REALLY wants to leak). There has been a lot of hopium spread by the industry and government (who has been subsidizing it) over the last 5+ years, but we are seeing the results of some of these experiments now in SK.

I don't think it's all bad. And I'm interested to see where things go with the forklifts for example, but with Shell shutting down all their hydrogen filling stations, it does really seem to be a dead man walking for transportation, while we continue to see EV chargers installed and new models of EV hit the market.
 
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